Catholic Support For Kerry

[PaxChristi7]

John Kerrey is very pro-choice. He has openly stated that he will only appoint judges to the federal bench who will uphold Roe. He has fundraised for NARAL and Planned Parenthood. He has received campaign donations from these groups and others such as NOW. There can be no doubt which side of the aisle Joh Kerrey is on when it comes to abortion.

And yet he was absent for every vote on the partial birth abortion ban for the past several years. John Kerry's voting record is horrible and is almost entirely contrary to what he's preaching now. The man is a phony and I can't believe so many people are supporting him! Doesn't anyone listen to Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh?!

I can't understand Catholic voters at all anymore. In fact, I can't say I understand American Catholics anymore. 50% of them vote pro-choice, more than half use contraception, and they blame the clergy for being the source of the Church's problems. *sigh* When will we listen to Authority?

[PaxChristi7]

Sorry guys, I didn't mean to do that. There was a problem when I tried to post the message to the thread. :o

Edited February 3, 2004 by PaxChristi7

[M.SIGGA]

Doesn't anyone listen to Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh?!

I understand your point and agree with you, but these guys won't help the creditability for your argument. Beck's The Real America is written like a high school research paper.

[Norseman82]

Suppose there was a candidate who had the greatest educational plan, the best economic plan to cause tremendous growth in the amount of jobs available, a superb plan to aid the homeless and renew the inner-city, the best health care plan..............and he was a Nazi.  Would you be justified in voting him into office?

1) If you learned a lesson from history, it is precisely BECAUSE people were desparate economically that the Nazis rose to power.

2) I'm not talking about urban renewal or college scholarships here. I'm referring to the elderly lady who has to choose between food, medicine, and heat when the temperature is below zero. I'm referring to the father and mother whose child needs expensive medical care for a serious condition and if they're out of work the child may not get it and may die either now or later due to complications and who may be left homeless. Being out of a job is NOT something to take lightly.

3) It was asked why people vote for pro-choice candidates, I gave an answer - not that I approve of it, I'm just stating political REALITY. The REALITY we face is that people vote on the economy when the economy is bad for them. If you don't like the reality, try to change it. And it's not going to change simply by making statements like "How sad for them" to people who are one week away from being thrown out of the streets or about to max out on their health insurance maximum for a sick kid while the people who make such comments are warm and snug and in comfortable homes in southern states like Texas which hardly ever see below zero temperatures. Such attitudes are callous and shocking and such a mindset is why I have a hard time associating with one Catholic group in particular.

As Catholics and pro-lifers we have to do a better job.

And before anyone accuses me of being a closet liberal Democrat, I do intend to vote for Bush (I just hope that the rumor that he intends to dump Cheney for Giuliani is just that - a rumor).

[JP2Iloveyou]

In an interview Wednesday in St. Louis, Kerry said "what I believe personally as a Catholic as an article of faith is an article of faith." But as a public official, he said, it was not "appropriate in the United States for a legislator to legislate personal religious beliefs for the rest of the country."

I hate this argument. It is ridiculous. Anyone ever seen a sign that says, "Speed Limit 55?" Is it not someone imposing their morality on me that I can only drive 55 on certain highways? What if I want to drive 100? Why shouldn't I be able to do it? After all, it's my car. I pay taxes, so I own at least part of the highway. Clearly, such an assertion to a state trooper would not get you out of a ticket. Every law is an objective imposition of a subjective moral position.

More to the point, does Senator Kerrey therefore support making murder, rape, perjury, and theft legal? After all, the fact that these actions are illegal is based on Jude-Christian values. The 10 Commandments say, "Thou shalt not kill." Should we therefore legalize ALL murder so as not to impose our Christian beliefs on society?

You know, I'm as conservative as they come, but I'm so sick of some of the so-called "conservative" and "Christian" republican leaders in this country. I will be voting for Bush because I more or less support the direction he is taking the country. However, we need people on our side speaking out as much as the liberals do on their side. I have to give credit to pro-choicers. They have marketed their message so successfully that they have painted pro-lifers as being nothing more than religious fanatics making up a small percentage of society, when in reality they are a majority. We need to market our position better.

[PaxChristi7]

M.Sigga,

Actually, I haven't read his books, or any of Limbaugh's for that matter. It was kind of a joke, though. I would pray that no one acted solely upon their words for there are many points of disagreement with their views as well. I meant it in jest (although I admit I listen to their programs regularly). :)

[PaxChristi7]

Norseman,

I apologize if I offended you. My outburst was not directed towards you as much as it was the 50% of American Catholics that vote pro-choice. I do apologize. Although, while I can certainly understand the condition of people that you mention, I highly doubt that 50% of American Catholics are voting pro-choice because they're in the social state that you describe. In fact, I could name many of my own Catholic, collegiate, friends who vote democrat (one of which worked on staff for Bill Graham's short-lived presidential run).

It really is a shame.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Kerry is pro-abort, and Bishop Burke of St. Louis has already said that Kerry cannot receive Communion in his diocese.

[Norseman82]

Norseman,

I apologize if I offended you. My outburst was not directed towards you as much as it was the 50% of American Catholics that vote pro-choice. I do apologize. Although, while I can certainly understand the condition of people that you mention, I highly doubt that 50% of American Catholics are voting pro-choice because they're in the social state that you describe. In fact, I could name many of my own Catholic, collegiate, friends who vote democrat (one of which worked on staff for Bill Graham's short-lived presidential run).

It really is a shame.

No problem! I know that a significant portion of the Catholics who don't vote pro-life are actually well off and that they just ignore church teachings left and right, and for those I also am - how shall I put this charitably - "frustrated" and biting my tongue.

But there are some who are stuck in really terrible straits that we need to reach out to if we want to earn their vote.

Here is another scenario that actually happened in Illinois, and this now includes the church's stance on the death penalty, and it actually helped move me toward the "it should only be used in rarest of instances" position. There was a death row inmate named Rolando Cruz that was basically railroaded for a murder and an expose revaled mush prosecutorial and police misconduct in the case to the point that any thinking person could see that the wrong man was in prison. But this county prosecutor (we call them states attorney) kept on resisiting and even pursued another conviction when the judge threw out the old conviction. (Luckily, he never succeeded). This states attorney later ran for and won two terms as Illinois attorney general, but was defeated in 2002 when he ran for governor. And yes, I did vote for him, even though his past actions in the case disturbed me. This guy was anti-abortion through and through, but what happens when one life issue conflicts with another? Just another thing to throw in the mix.

[hyperdulia again]

"Christians" who put "Catholic" in quotes as if the appellation belongs to them, disturb me.

[Oik]

:huh:

Catholics = against abortion, always

Kerry = openly pro-choice

Supporting others choice = accessory to fact

Here is a good link from the people at EWTN about our responsibility as catholics:

EWTN - Moral Duties Concering Voting

Edited February 5, 2004 by Oik

[M.SIGGA]

Instead of issuing statements about Duties of Voting I wish the Church would just endorse a candidate/political party and make it easier for confused Democrats like myself instead of "Beating Around The Bush" (pun intended). Archbishop Hannan is starting to lean this way because he understands that people need verbal confirmation from a bishop because priests will have a variety of different positions based on who you talk too.

[hopeful1]

1)  If you learned a lesson from history, it is precisely BECAUSE people were desparate economically that the Nazis rose to power.

2) I'm not talking about urban renewal or college scholarships here.  I'm referring to the elderly lady who has to choose between food, medicine, and heat when the temperature is below zero.  I'm referring to the father and mother whose child needs expensive medical care for a serious condition and if they're out of work the child may not get it and may die either now or later due to complications and who may be left homeless.  Being out of a job is NOT something to take lightly.

3)  It was asked why people vote for pro-choice candidates, I gave an answer - not that I approve of it, I'm just stating political REALITY.  The REALITY we face is that people vote on the economy when the economy is bad for them.  If you don't like the reality, try to change it.  And it's not going to change simply by making statements like "How sad for them" to people who are one week away from being thrown out of the streets or about to max out on their health insurance maximum for a sick kid while the people who make such comments are warm and snug and in comfortable homes in southern states like Texas which hardly ever see below zero temperatures.  Such attitudes are callous and shocking and such a mindset is why I have a hard time associating with one Catholic group in particular. 

As Catholics and pro-lifers we have to do a better job.

And before anyone accuses me of being a closet liberal Democrat, I do intend to vote for Bush (I just hope that the rumor that he intends to dump Cheney for Giuliani is just that - a rumor).

ok, let me make it clear that I AM PRO-LIFE. This is also the first year i can vote in the pres. election, i consider myself 'Indy" but i'm registered republican. I was thinking about this issue earlier today almost along the same lines Norseman was. I'm in a human development class right now and it appears that most ( a generalization here, but i'm sure it's a ligit one) women choose to abort because of economical reasons (not saying that justifies anything, just a fact) and low income mothers recieve less pre/postnatal care =$$$. i dunno maybe its a naive assumption , but doesn't it make more sense to improve the economy for people in that situation so there are FEWER abortions first, before we can make it illegal. I don't know if that made any sense or not, but at the time it did.

on the other hand, even Jesus said we're always going to have poor people.

"As Catholics and pro-lifers we have to do a better job."

man have you hit the nail on the head with that one!

Edited February 5, 2004 by hopeful1

[hopeful1]

btw, just a haunch, but most of the people who voted for Kerry and checked "Catholic" are probably just catholic for the bragging rights.

Not that i can judge their souls.

[Oik]

I agree with M. Sigga in the aspect That I think we need some more parties, although I would have to think about actually having a catholic party of sorts. I don't see the US getting a new party without major government reform (yeah right!). I consider myself an independant and I really only see politics and political action as a way to further God's Truth. If it doesn't, I don't support it. If I had to absolutely classify myself, I would say that I politically fall in to the moderate category with a strong leaning toward conservative, however I loathe politics, I refuse to say that I am political.

And, I will vote for Bush.