Religion Tactics

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='jckinsman' post='1311345' date='Jul 3 2007, 04:13 PM']...........................And funny little people that have big, big minds and think they can out wit- out scheme, and out last their Creator, is nothing new. I 'am pretty sure HE is used to it, and HE laughs! Its has happened from the dawn of creation.
You are funny if you really think that these silly comments have much to do with GOD! Your brain is nowhere near the capacity of GOD. You can think that it is,brains do work that way.Yet I choose with my small brain to believe in God. You on the other hand would like to render your soul to your own intellect. A feat I have learned, to be quite daring and willful.
To whom will we say is your moral compass? You seem to have this finite about the enviorment and guns and such,yet under your NO GOD rule,a certain sense of what is right and what is gone is lost. Don't you think????
Though shalt not Kill FOR INSTANCE,why hold that as any sort of standard if there is none. Where do you think the start of all these"things that are good for us" come from????(commandments??? )You said human nature pretty much "smells of elderberries" an we are killing ourselves and the earth,so how on this earth do we come up with anything good if it wasn't for GOD ?????
You are just seeing the fruits of a GODLESS society. NO GOOD<NO GOD ............KNOW GOOD< KNOW GOD. [/quote]

I like this response, especially. If I may speak for my friend, Naralas, he claims to be a moral atheist. Where morality comes from is rationality... anywho that is what I remember from one of our past arguments... I'll wait for the man to come on and give his side... anywho a side note, I was laughing my head off reading all these posts because I know exactly how each of you argue... it's like... worlds colliding. Thanks for the crazy experience everybody

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1311689' date='Jul 3 2007, 09:19 PM']it seems like maybe you're saying that the cause of us is something, and whatever that is, you're gonna call that God. that's teh only way you could be addressing my concerns, but that doesn't define God as anything meaningful.
just asking the question of what made us isn't proving God.

you stated the party line but didn't state how God can just exist.
if god can just be, why can't the world can just be?
if the world is complex, does it make sense that a more complex being would exist to create it?

answer/address those questions instead of just pointing out how odd it is that we could just be. (and not thinking to think about how odd it is that God can just be)[/quote]
The world and the universe are a big mass of rock and various matter floating in space supposedly the aftermath of a primordial explosion. The existence of a Higher Intelligence is beyond my total comprehension. His existence is a mystery and cannot be totally defined. It is logical that He could exist without my knowing how. The universe is different - it can be observed and measured. It makes sense that a Creator Being that is beyong us could just exist, but not a mass of gas and matter.

[dairygirl4u2c]

in your last post you talked about how you dont understand how we'd existwithout God.
now it seems like you're just saying that it makes sense to say God exists.
i agree that it makes sense that he exists. i only contend that you can't definitely prove God's existance. that doesn't seem like what you responded to in your last post.

[naralas]

NOTES TO START:[list]
[*]I've never heard of Richard Dawkins, but I have a lot of faith in the intelligence behind South Park so I will be looking for that episode referenced by someone.
[*]I went over the number of allowed quotes so I just used bold instead
[/list][b]We don't do arrogant and we don't do rude. Neither characteristic is related to maturity or intelligence or good internet conversation because you can't see the others facial expressions and it leads to generating more heat than light.
Versions of the f word are also banned, as we are a catholic site.[/b]

Your accusing me of being immature and unintelligent, (and yes you WILL say that “no I was just saying you don't “appear” to be when you act that way” which is BS and the only way I can avoid having to listen to it is by pointing it out now)

[b]If there is no God why not be "evil"?[/b]

Evil is stupid. Categorical Imperative.

[b]If there is no God why not "hate"?[/b]

Hatred hurts only your self. Nobody cares you hate them unless you are evil to them. And we are back to evil being stupid.

[b]If there is no God does love exist? [/b]

Love is a creation of man. Man exists (probably)

[b]Without God does life have purpose or meaning? [/b]

No more than what we make of it.

[b]if you hold it together and rebuke people with a little less vehemence you won't look like you are desperately scrambling for verbal cover.[/b]

Your seeing what you want to see. I am eager and encouraged, yet you think I'm jumping into this to prove something to myself. I am blunt and honest, yet you think I'm rude and offensive. Your letting perspective vito logic.

[b]Playing the odds...[/b]

That is Pascals Wager. The thing I talked about in my first post. When you limit it to “what you get out of it” then perhaps your right. However thats a cowards game.

[b]However unlikely it is that an omnipotent and omniscient Creator created the universe, it is infinitely more unlikely that it all came about by accident. If nothing else, explain how the first 2 dust particles bumping together came into being, please.[/b]

Once again, the accident theory only works if God exists... if we are not planned, then we ARE an accident. It just happened to happen this way. We may be on our way out faster than you know.

[b]I must invoke Occam's Razor here: when two explanations are presented, even when both are highly unlikely, the least complex must be the correct one. Ergo God exists. QED.[/b]

Finally someone who knows the source of the idea's they speak. ^^ Good work. Now my response to this is simply: God is simple? My explanation is: we cannot know. That's about as simple as she gets. This argument, however, is the best one presented against me thus far, because it comes down to being subjective, what you find to be [i]simple[/i] depends on the person. So logic really fails to come to any universal answer, so I chose to step away from this one. But don't accuse me of dodging it, just, if you peruse it, then I would be endeavoring instead to prove it a bad point on which to argue, rather than wrong.

[b]to say you have to disprove God[/b]
I will stop you here; disproving God? I chose not to believe an unlikely answer simply because it's the only one I can grasp. God very well COULD exist. I just don't think so. I may just not understand who you are addressing or in what manner.

[b]So we have the spaghetti monster on the one side and the bike on the other, ha.[/b]
Neither is on your side. God is a first mover. The bike had a mover, but not a first mover. The spaghetti monster is nonsense, and yet people believe it... so I guess thats somewhat in your favor

[b]this person has brought God into his own personal logic and has deemed God not likely using his limited knowledge. you cannot explain God using human logic or rationality,[/b]

For a moment the argument was turning to gold. Then someone barfed this BS all over the forum.

God isn't rational! I just know everything! RAWR! If it's about some magical feeling you get we are back to mass hysteria.

[b]God does not need or warrant a scientific explanation. Likewise, religion cannot suffice to explain science[/b]

Religion cannot explain science because that is not its place. Science however, can explain religion fairly well. Or at least, your need for it. I admit miracles are quite a headscratcher, but no logical train has taken me from thinking that my cousin being able to see without glasses or me surviving all my little mishaps that some God decided that in a world of suffering, he will dangle his power in front of us for the purpose of letting us know he is there so we can love him until we die and maybe get rewarded for it?

[b]. It is obvious that this person here with this thread is stuck in his own limited perception of the world. One must transcend to find God.[/b]

This is the classic condition of needing God. You feel important, wise and verified in your existence. That's why it works! If I have to throw out logic (see: all we have) to believe him, then you can keep him.

I wont hold this shoddy argument against the rest of you.

[b=in response to me saying there were certain arguments I could crush]this is OBVIOUSLY opinion[/b]

Indeed. But I do believe it so I felt the warning was warranted

[b]i find it ironic that groo cites okham's razor for God when i cite it for an argument against God.
if the world is complex, does it make sense to say something even more complex made it? if God can just be, then the world can just be. it seems God is the unneeded extra addition. So I do not follow his argument that okham's razor should apply when arguing for God.[/b]

Very clever. I wish I had thought of that.

And I love your signature to death as well. However I do imagine your a believer?

[b]a postieri, it makes sense to say that God's existance can be proven. the CC says that it can be proven. using the causation theory. It's rational to argue something caused the bike to move. it's less reasonable to say a specific thing like a speghetti monster caused us. But, a priori, we cannot say for sure that God exists. All the arguments against it add up, ultimately. Even a postiori, it's only circumstantial evidence, but I think it's enough to warrant saying they "proved" it. if you disagree, i don't think it's unreasonable.
as far as I know, the CC is not perfect in its teaching anyway.[/b]

I simply want to add “unlikely” to circumstantial. I wish we could have an official court to determine if God existed or not and have an agnostic be the judge. Hehehe

Jeff want's me to go to this SONfest thing, if any agnostics ARE there I will ask if we can play that game!

[b]..........................And funny little people that have big, big minds and think they can out wit- out scheme, and out last their Creator, is nothing new. I 'am pretty sure HE is used to it, and HE laughs! Its has happened from the dawn of creation.
You are funny if you really think that these silly comments have much to do with GOD! Your brain is nowhere near the capacity of GOD. You can think that it is,brains do work that way.Yet I choose with my small brain to believe in God. You on the other hand would like to render your soul to your own intellect. A feat I have learned, to be quite daring and willful.
To whom will we say is your moral compass? You seem to have this finite about the enviorment and guns and such,yet under your NO GOD rule,a certain sense of what is right and what is gone is lost. Don't you think????
Though shalt not Kill FOR INSTANCE,why hold that as any sort of standard if there is none. Where do you think the start of all these"things that are good for us" come from????(commandments??? )You said human nature pretty much "smells of elderberries" an we are killing ourselves and the earth,so how on this earth do we come up with anything good if it wasn't for GOD ?????
You are just seeing the fruits of a GODLESS society. NO GOOD<NO GOD ............KNOW GOOD< KNOW GOD. [/b]

Wow. Wow.... you start your argument the same way some bully on a schoolyard would try make some little kid cry. Thats a -20 on your arguments validity off the hop! “EVERYONE LAUGHS AT YOU HAHAHA EVERYONE LAUGHS AT YOU”...

Alright, now, you ask where my rules come from? You know there ARE atheist philosophers right? For the second or third time I shall cite Categorical Imperative, logic, and the general stupidity of acting cruel or evil.

[b]That is interesting seeing as the most brilliant minds in the world have struggled with these exact arguments for centuries....[/b]

The [i]most[/i] brilliant saw in there very composition that they were flawed. It wasnt WHAT they struggled with but the WHO.

[b]His act of will sustains everything. Very simple indeed.[/b]

But as the previous poster said to you: still an unnecessary addition. You have not proven the prime mover necessary at all. However looking down I see they replied to you, and judging by what I've seen of them thus far you will probably be more thoroughly disprove than what I've said. Partly because they are smart, but also because I see no reason to continue on this point because you already failed to disprove their first point.

[b]If there were no Creator, I seriously do not understand how there could be anything at all. [/b]

Yet you can understand/believe in the creator itself? Your avoiding not knowing (see: Mankind has always feared what it does not understand) by knowing without proof or reason. This is roughly the mental equivalent to what I saw Homer Simpson do last night while remodeling his kitchen, which was bash a sledge hammer into an electrical box and have the sh*t knocked out of him, and then try it again assuming it would go better the second time.

[b]Basically, I pose the the famous question: Why is there anything at all? If our origin really is in some big ball of gas that blew up billions of years ago, how did it get here? It did not just exist.[/b]

And I pose the famous slap-in-ye-face response: God CAN?

You all say it's been debated forever, but remember. it's only because of the support of other Christians that their arguments were given any consideration at all. As I said, this is simple to me, as it seems simple to you. Saying the point is argued means nothing. Having something (other than other opinions) on which to stand means a lot. A strong example of what I mean is the fact that I have never been matched for numbers in debate against Christians, it's always at least 5-1, and I have only once ever had someone else with me. It stands to reason that something other than other people is holding me up.

It can't be a support system. I am not even allowed to let my extended family KNOW I don't believe in God.

[b]it seems like maybe you're saying that the cause of us is something, and whatever that is, you're gonna call that God. that's teh only way you could be addressing my concerns, but that doesn't define God as anything meaningful.[/b]

Give me some way to contact you. If your a Christian I want your attention focused on proving this crud to me. Bring those of equal mental capacity to yourself. It will be fun.

If your atheist and have 1700 posts for some weird reason then I will be disappointed.

[b]It is logical that He could exist without my knowing how. The universe is different - it can be observed and measured. It makes sense that a Creator Being that is beyong us could just exist, but not a mass of gas and matter.[/b]

Thats a good one!

This is the reason I've devoted two sides of my cube to this thread!

In response:
Yeah, things we can measure CAN be beyond measure at the same time.
Atoms were not known to us, once upon a time.
Limitations. Some that may even never be surpassed, are the basis of my response, yet again.
Some evolution of humanity, or some other race somewhere in the universe past or present or future, may someday comprehend “the beginning of time” or “the origin of all”, but until your God can be looked at that way, all we can really do is stop with the bleeding origin carp! It only serves to make me repeat myself. When you do that to someone, it does not make them look favorably, but in reality, when the same point can stop you twice , it's obvious that your NOT LISTENING.

[b]i agree that it makes sense that he exists.[/b]

Good Good, so you ARE Christian. I am going to check your profile for an e-mail. Your officially being challenged :-p

I thought you said something earlier about understanding when others didn't believe so I was fairly sure you were Christian, but this confirms it. Didn't wanna assume because it was just circumstantial up to this point :-p (circumstantial but likely at the same time, which is still a few steps ahead of the proof of God, but still not enough to believe!!)

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1311960' date='Jul 4 2007, 12:55 AM']in your last post you talked about how you dont understand how we'd existwithout God.
now it seems like you're just saying that it makes sense to say God exists.
i agree that it makes sense that he exists. i only contend that you can't definitely prove God's existance. that doesn't seem like what you responded to in your last post.[/quote]
I believe that there is [i]no other explanation[/i] for existence than a Creator. I apologize if I have not addressed your questions, as my initial post was directed to the original poster and was not intended to be a response to any of the other posts in this thread (of which I only sort of glanced at some).
[quote name='naralas' post='1312093' date='Jul 4 2007, 05:03 AM'][b]If there were no Creator, I seriously do not understand how there could be anything at all. [/b]

Yet you can understand/believe in the creator itself? Your avoiding not knowing (see: Mankind has always feared what it does not understand) by knowing without proof or reason. This is roughly the mental equivalent to what I saw Homer Simpson do last night while remodeling his kitchen, which was bash a sledge hammer into an electrical box and have the sh*t knocked out of him, and then try it again assuming it would go better the second time.[/quote]
I believe in a Creator because I do not believe a cold, random, material universe just exists. I think it is far more plausible to say that an immaterial, intelligent, Creator Being just exists.
[quote][b]Basically, I pose the the famous question: Why is there anything at all? If our origin really is in some big ball of gas that blew up billions of years ago, how did it get here? It did not just exist.[/b]

And I pose the famous slap-in-ye-face response: God CAN?[/quote]
Yes! He is an infinite Being unlike ourselves, far beyond ourselves. I know that you will be disappointed in this response, but God is a mystery that we cannot fully comprehend. I do not think it is necessary either.
[quote][b]It is logical that He could exist without my knowing how. The universe is different - it can be observed and measured. It makes sense that a Creator Being that is beyong us could just exist, but not a mass of gas and matter.[/b]

Thats a good one!

This is the reason I've devoted two sides of my cube to this thread!

In response:
Yeah, things we can measure CAN be beyond measure at the same time.
Atoms were not known to us, once upon a time.
Limitations. Some that may even never be surpassed, are the basis of my response, yet again.
Some evolution of humanity, or some other race somewhere in the universe past or present or future, may someday comprehend “the beginning of time” or “the origin of all”, but until your God can be looked at that way, all we can really do is stop with the bleeding origin carp! It only serves to make me repeat myself. When you do that to someone, it does not make them look favorably, but in reality, when the same point can stop you twice , it's obvious that your NOT LISTENING.[/quote]
I am not quite sure I understand. If I have made you repeat yourself, I apologize. When I entered this thread, I was not intending to pick up where any other poster left off and was aiming at a unique conversation. Are you saying that one of your stumbling blocks to belief is that God is immeasurable? Because you cannot touch, feel, smell, etc. He is not worthy of belief?