Monotheism/beatific Vision

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1312105' date='Jul 4 2007, 03:39 AM']Yes, but at the most I would call this an ambiguity in Vatican II, not a heresy. What I believe to be the natural interpretation of such statements is that the "worship" or "adoration" is spoken of in a subjective sense. The question of whether Islam offers objectively true and acceptable worship to God is extrinsic.[/quote]
The Church Fathers considered the "ambiguity" of Nestorius, and the "ambiguity" of Eutytches, to be heresy. Ambiguity in worship and doctrine is dangerous.

P.S. - No Catholic is required to accept the non-definitive statements on Islam issued by the Bishops at Vatican II.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1312106' date='Jul 4 2007, 04:39 AM']You, and the Bishops of Vatican II, affirm that Muslims "adore" God, this is impossible since they deny the divinity of Christ and the dogma of the Trinity.

God bless,
Todd[/quote]
You have made the terms "worship" and "adore" some sort of strict technical terms. The sense that you attach to these words is not indicated in the Church's teachings. I have never read, in the Catechism or anywhere else, that Muslims offer true and salvific worship to God (quite the contrary in fact). The senses of the words "worship" and "adoration" are broad enough to include all manner of homage and reverence. I may adore my wife, I may worship the saints, I may even give worship and adoration to the dog star (not that I would ever dream of such nonsense). So while the Bishops of Vatican II may have affirmed that Muslims "adore" God, it was not the extreme sense that you are imposing. The Muslims say that what they do is worshipping God, it sure looks like they're worshipping God (in some sense), therefore it is a perfectly accurate statement to say that Muslims worship God; in a subjective sense if you demand such qualification.

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1312106' date='Jul 4 2007, 04:39 AM']P.S. - Being offended is irrelevant to the topic under discussion.[/quote]
That was simultaneously a means of emphasis and a perfectly valid statement of fact. Although irrelevant to the topic under discussion (but not the discussion as such) that response is a bit Vulcan. hehe

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1312105' date='Jul 4 2007, 03:39 AM']The question of whether Islam offers objectively true and acceptable worship to God is extrinsic.[/quote]
No. This is the central point at issue in our discussion.

Is it possible to have a theological dialogue with a religion that is inherently inimical to the Christian faith? No, I do not believe that it is, and the irenic comments made by the Magisterium over the course of the last forty years ultimately confuse both Catholics and Muslims. Moreover, can a religion that openly denies the divinity of Christ and the dogma of the Trinity be a vehicle for worship of the true God? No, I do believe that this is possible. In other words, I refuse to embrace theological indifferentism.

God bless,
Todd

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1312109' date='Jul 4 2007, 03:47 AM']That was simultaneously a means of emphasis and a perfectly valid statement of fact. Although irrelevant to the topic under discussion (but not the discussion as such) that response is a bit Vulcan.[/quote]
It is not "Vulcan" at all; instead, it is simply an expression of my refusal to allow the conversation to be side tracked by a rhetorical device.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1312109' date='Jul 4 2007, 03:47 AM']You have made the terms "worship" and "adore" some sort of strict technical terms.[/quote]
They are strict technical terms, as St. John Damascene, St. Theodore Studite, and the Second Council of Nicaea taught.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1312110' date='Jul 4 2007, 04:52 AM']No. This is the central point at issue in our discussion.

Is it possible to have a theological dialogue with a religion that is inherently inimical to the Christian faith? No, I do not believe that it is, and the irenic comments made by the Magisterium over the course of the last forty years ultimately confuse both Catholics and Muslims. Moreover, can a religion that openly denies the divinity of Christ and the dogma of the Trinity be a vehicle for worship of the true God? No, I do believe that this is possible. In other words, I refuse to embrace theological indifferentism.

God bless,
Todd[/quote]
On the one hand I firmly embrace [i]Dominus Iesus[/i] and understand Vatican II in light of this document (and other clarifying documents), whilst at the same time I don't detect any hints of theological indifferentism in my perspective on world religions. For someone to insist that this perspective is a manifestation of indifferentism suggests two major possibilities to my mind: 1. I am deluded; 2. my understanding is misunderstood and/or has not been stated with clarity.

[Apotheoun]

Let me put it this way: from an Eastern Christian perspective the Western Church tries to say too much about salvation outside the Church. Moreover, the entire framework of modern Catholic teaching on Islam (and other non-Christian religions for that matter) is speculative in the extreme, and ultimately pointless, since none of it is a part of divine revelation, and as such it is beyond the scope of Magisterial authority to make a definitive pronouncement.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1312112' date='Jul 4 2007, 04:56 AM']They are strict technical terms, as St. John Damascene, St. Theordore Studite, and the Second Council of Nicaea taught.[/quote]
No, not the English words; and not even the canonized words if used in a context that is not proper to such things. I can speak of persons and essences outside the context of the Trinitarian Mystery without holding myself to the rigours of dogmatic technicalities.
In Latin theology it is [i]latria [/i]that designates the sense of worship that is proper to God alone. The Latin text of Lumen Gentium does not use this term but rather uses the more general term which can, in the weakest sense, simply mean that they pray to God ([i]adorant[/i]). Not sure if this is any consolation, but one cannot accuse Vatican II of applying technical terms for the true worship of God to Islam. On the downside I do believe that this is the Latin term used in the Vulgate when Christ speaks of worshipping in spirit and truth, but it would still be a stretch to attach all the baggage that you would like to upon the Lumen Gentium statement, especially in light of the full context and clarifications surrounding that issue.

Rather than condemning Lumen Gentium to the infamy of heresy, the most your criticisms do is point out that these statements cannot be understood in x, y, z heretical way, which I don't think many sane people do anyway.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1312120' date='Jul 4 2007, 04:19 AM']No, not the English words; and not even the canonized words if used in a context that is not proper to such things. I can speak of persons and essences outside the context of the Trinitarian Mystery without holding myself to the rigours of dogmatic technicalities.
In Latin theology it is latria that designates the sense of worship that is proper to God alone. The Latin text of Lumen Gentium does not use this term but rather uses the more general term which can, in the weakest sense, simply mean prayer. Not sure if this is any consolation, but one cannot accuse Vatican II of applying technical terms for the true worship of God to Islam.[/quote]
[i]Adore[/i] is the technical word used in English to indicate worship of Almighty God alone, and sadly that is the word that Vatican II used when describing Muslim "worship."

Vatican II promotes a position that is innovative and actually contrary to the constant tradition of the Church.

Nevertheless, the statements made by the Bishops at Vatican II are not definitive, and -- as a consequence -- no Catholic is required to accept them as an accurate representation of the Catholic position.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1312115' date='Jul 4 2007, 05:00 AM']Let me put it this way: from an Eastern Christian perspective the Western Church tries to say too much about salvation outside the Church. Moreover, the entire framework of modern Catholic teaching on Islam (and other non-Christian religions for that matter) is speculative in the extreme, and ultimately pointless, since none of it is a part of divine revelation, and as such it is beyond the scope of Magisterial authority to make a definitive pronouncement.[/quote]
I know many Roman Catholics who would agree with you (no doubt most traddies), and I would agree to the extent that further clarification is needed and perhaps some less ambiguously inclusive statements. A full blown ecumenical (meaning Catholic-Orthodox not Protestant) statement on the matter would be most splendid.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1312122' date='Jul 4 2007, 04:24 AM']I know many Roman Catholics who would agree with you (no doubt most traddies), and I would agree to the extent that further clarification is needed and perhaps some less ambiguously inclusive statements. A full blown ecumenical (meaning Catholic-Orthodox not Protestant) statement on the matter would be most splendid.[/quote]
It is simply impossible for the Magisterium to say, in a definitive manner, anything positive about Islam.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1312121' date='Jul 4 2007, 05:24 AM']Adore is the technical word used in English to indicate worship of Almighty God alone, and sadly that is the word that Vatican II used when describing Muslim "worship."

Vatican II promotes a position that is innovative and actually contrary to the constant tradition of the Church.[/quote]
Rather than continuing the semantic dispute (I really don't know what the deal is with the word "adore") I will just say that the only real innovation is you interpretation of Lumen Gentium apart from the tradition and definitive teachings of the Church. I do not think it is utterly impossible to reconcile these sentiments with tradition and I believe that this is in fact the only framework in which such things can be properly understood. I will again indicate [i]Dominus Iesus[/i] as my favorite source of clarification on this matter. In light of this your heretical exegesis is simply foreign to the authentic understanding of the Church.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1312124' date='Jul 4 2007, 04:29 AM']Rather than continuing the semantic dispute (I really don't know what the deal is with the word "adore") I will just say that the only real innovation is you interpretation of Lumen Gentium apart from the tradition and definitive teachings of the Church. I do not think it is utterly impossible to reconcile these sentiments with tradition and I believe that this is in fact the only framework in which such things can be properly understood. I will again indicate [i]Dominus Iesus[/i] as my favorite source of clarification on this matter. In light of this your heretical exegesis is simply foreign to the authentic understanding of the Church.[/quote]
I suppose we will have to agree to disagree. I reject the non-definitive statements made by the Bishops at Vatican II on Islam, because they are contrary to the universal Tradition of the Church.

God bless,
Todd

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1312123' date='Jul 4 2007, 05:27 AM']It is simply impossible for the Magisterium to say, in a definitive manner, anything positive about Islam.[/quote]
On the level of dogma perhaps, but Church history is full of statements and positions on matters that don't pertain to Catholic faith and morals. The Church is in the world and must act in that world. You may be offended by the "spirit of Vatican II", but it is the stance and mind of the Church in the face of the situations of the modern world and there is a certain religious assent that is owed by the faithful even in matters that are not [i]ex cathedra[/i] teachings. I'm not saying that Catholics must assent to heretical notions about Islam, but as I was saying, I don't believe that this was anyone's intent. A certain cardinal addressed a mob of Muslims a couple years ago and pretty much spelled out the fact that there is no real "dialogue" between Islam and Christianity when it comes to doctrine. Christianity exists to convert the whole world to Christ; Islam exists to establish Islamic dominion throughout the world. We can try to coexist peacefully, but the Cardinal made clear that no indifferentist hand holding is really possible without effectively abandoning our religions. The Church has not abandoned the Faith and never will.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1312125' date='Jul 4 2007, 05:32 AM']I suppose we will have to agree to disagree. I reject the non-definitive statements made by the Bishops at Vatican II on Islam, because they are contrary to the universal Tradition of the Church.

God bless,
Todd[/quote]
*takes a respectful bow* (Japanese style)

Perhaps we can pick up where we left off some other time. I'm quite tired and suspect that my responses were not as lucid as they may otherwise have been. My apologies for any stupidity or offense that may have come from my keyboard.

God bless you my friend.

P.S. I replied before I saw your last post so feel free to put in the last word if you see a need to respond to said post.