Monotheism/beatific Vision

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1311163' date='Jul 3 2007, 02:19 PM']I know that you do not find indifferentist dialogue with Muslims a problem, but I -- as an Eastern Christian -- do, and so do my Eastern Orthodox friends, who see the Roman Church's present attitude as bordering on heresy. Of course, this creates a new obstacle to the restoration of communion with the Orthodox Churches.

God bless,
Todd[/quote]

Todd,

I did not realize that you are Eastern orthodox and that therein lies the difference of what we believe, concerning what the Pope/s has declared on ecumenism and or Vatican II.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1311220' date='Jul 3 2007, 01:02 PM']Todd,

I did not realize that you are Eastern orthodox and that therein lies the difference of what we believe, concerning what the Pope/s has declared on ecumenism and or Vatican II.[/quote]
I am not Eastern Orthodox. I am a Ruthenian Catholic.



God bless,
Todd

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1311226' date='Jul 3 2007, 03:04 PM']I am not Eastern Orthodox. I am a Ruthenian Catholic.



God bless,
Todd[/quote]

Nice to meet you Todd. I have been lurking for sometime now and I am blown away with the knowledge that the Phatmass group possess'. I have enjoyed your point of view and in no way do I compromise my faith in desiring to reach out. I find it a very Christ-like quality as Jesus wants [b]all [/b]to find the WAY and THE TRUTH.

[Apotheoun]

Thank you for your kind words, and I too am happy to have made your acquaintance here at Phatmass.

Now, as far as the topic at issue is concerned, I only disagree with the concept of theological dialogue with Muslims, because there can be no theological dialogue with a group that openly denies the divinity of Christ and the dogma of the Holy Trinity. On the other hand, there can be dialogue with any group (including Muslims) on subjects that concern civil discourse, e.g., finding ways to avoid violence between members of different religions in a pluralistic society. That said, theological indifferentism is to be absolutely avoided, because it will only confuse both Catholics and Muslims.

God bless,
Todd

[mortify]

We can't assume non-Catholics will be in heaven.

"There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church."

[goldenchild17]

wow this has been a fun thread to read. I can't even pick a side. Its like watching a tennis match of your two favorite players . I agree equally with both sides on this one (inasfar as I can agree at all).

Edited July 3, 2007 by goldenchild17

[Luthien]

This is L_D. I will take Apotheoun's side if he changes his stinkin title already. hehe

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1311283' date='Jul 3 2007, 03:36 PM']Thank you for your kind words, and I too am happy to have made your acquaintance here at Phatmass.

Now, as far as the topic at issue is concerned, I only disagree with the concept of theological dialogue with Muslims, because there can be no theological dialogue with a group that openly denies the divinity of Christ and the dogma of the Holy Trinity. On the other hand, there can be dialogue with any group (including Muslims) on subjects that concern civil discourse, e.g., finding ways to avoid violence between members of different religions in a pluralistic society. That said, theological indifferentism is to be absolutely avoided, because it will only confuse both Catholics and Muslims.

God bless,
Todd[/quote]

With due respect, I want to know is by whose authority does Apotheoun speak and claim that we should [b]only[/b] discuss subjects of civil discourse and any theological discussions should be [b]absolutely[/b] avoided because of confusion.

When there is an individual who is sincerely seeking the TRUTH and Holy Spirit is moving this person to the TRUTH, by evangelization, there is no room for confusion, regardless of how far their belief's are from the TRUTH.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='mortify' post='1311514' date='Jul 3 2007, 06:51 PM']We can't assume non-Catholics will be in heaven.

"There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church."[/quote]

Morty,

No one has given me their take on Jesus stating there are many mansions in his house.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1311932' date='Jul 3 2007, 11:20 PM']Morty,

No one has given me their take on Jesus stating there are many mansions in his house.[/quote]
I can give you Saint Augustine's take, which happens to be reflected throughout the history of Catholic thought.

"The many mansions point to the different grades of merit in that one eternal life. For there is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differs from another star in glory; and so also the resurrection of the dead. The saints, like the stars in the sky, obtain in the kingdom different mansions of diverse degrees of brightness; but on account of that one penny no one is cut off from the kingdom; and God will be all in all in such a way, that, as God is love, love will bring it about that what is possessed by each will be common to all. For in this way every one really possesses it, when he loves to see in another what he has not himself. There will not, therefore, be any envying amid this diversity of brightness, since in all of them will be reigning the unity of love." - St. Augustine, [i]Tractates on the Gospel of John[/i], No. 67

Again, the Catechism of the Council of Trent:

"For in my Father's house, says our Lord, there are many mansions, in which shall be distributed rewards of greater and of less value according to each one's deserts. He who soweth sparingly, shall also reap sparingly: and he who soweth in blessings, shall also reap blessings." - Catechism of Trent, Article XII

[Era Might]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1311931' date='Jul 4 2007, 12:19 AM']...claim that we should [b]only[/b] discuss subjects of civil discourse and any theological discussions should be [b]absolutely[/b] avoided because of confusion.[/quote]
The Church's dialogue with non-Christians is not limited to civil discourse, but extends to religious truth as well. It is distinguished from evangelization, but not from the mission "ad gentes." Evangelization is the direct proclamation of the Gospel, while dialogue is the encounter of two sides who come together in a personal sense. To spread the Gospel effectively we must relate to non-Christians as friends and understand them, and through that relationship of dialogue we bear witness to our own faith:

[quote]In the light of the economy of salvation, the Church sees no conflict between proclaiming Christ and engaging in interreligious dialogue. Instead, she feels the need to link the two in the context of her mission ad gentes. These two elements must maintain both their intimate connection and their distinctiveness; therefore they should not be confused, manipulated or regarded as identical, as though they were interchangeable.

...

Dialogue does not originate from tactical concerns or self-interest, but is an activity with its own guiding principles, requirements and dignity. It is demanded by deep respect for everything that has been brought about in human beings by the Spirit who blows where he wills. Through dialogue, the Church seeks to uncover the "seeds of the Word," a "ray of that truth which enlightens all men''; these are found in individuals and in the religious traditions of mankind. Dialogue is based on hope and love, and will bear fruit in the Spirit. Other religions constitute a positive challenge for the Church: they stimulate her both to discover and acknowledge the signs of Christ's presence and of the working of the Spirit, as well as to examine more deeply her own identity and to bear witness to the fullness of Revelation which she has received for the good of all.

This gives rise to the spirit which must enliven dialogue in the context of mission. Those engaged in this dialogue must be consistent with their own religious traditions and convictions, and be open to understanding those of the other party without pretense or close-mindedness, but with truth, humility and frankness, knowing that dialogue can enrich each side. There must be no abandonment of principles nor false irenicism, but instead a witness given and received for mutual advancement on the road of religious inquiry and experience, and at the same time for the elimination of prejudice, intolerance and misunderstandings. Dialogue leads to inner purification and conversion which, if pursued with docility to the Holy Spirit, will be spiritually fruitful.

--Pope John Paul II, Encyclical Letter "Redemptoris Missio"[/quote]

[quote]Interreligious and intercultural dialogue between Christians and Muslims cannot be reduced to an optional extra. It is in fact a vital necessity, on which in large measure our future depends.

--Pope Benedict XVI, World Youth Day "Meeting with Representatives of some Muslim Communities"[/quote]

[Laudate_Dominum]

Very provocative, thanks Era.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1311122' date='Jul 3 2007, 01:45 PM']Invincible ignorance does not fall into place anywhere in this discussion, because no human being can tell who is or is not invincibly ignorant. Moreover, it worries me when a Catholic pushes forward the idea of invincible ignorance as if it is the panacea for all problems. It is the duty of Christians to evangelize, not to assume that everyone is invincibly ignorant and thus [i]somehow[/i] saved. Ignorance, invincible or otherwise, is not salvific.

Now, as far as the "many mansions" comment is concerned, it has nothing to do with this topic either, but I will say this much about it, it is wrong to hold that the many mansions refered to by our Lord means that there is a Muslim heaven, and a Hindu heaven, etc., because salvation is made possible only in, with, and through Christ. In other words, no one is saved by being a member of a false religion.[/quote]

I missed this post and ran across it when re-reading. Apotheoun, again, in your world there is only [b]black [/b]and [b]white [/b]and there is no room for anyone by no fault of their own, not coming to the FULLNESS of TRUTH. For the record I am not insinuating and or pushing invincible ignorance as a solution and or an excuse as so that one may be saved.

The constant teaching of the Church is summarized in the Catechism of the Catholic Church; and section 847 of the Catechism clearly states the Church's teaching that ... [b]"those who through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - THOSE TOO MAY ACHIEVE ETERNAL SALVATION". [/b]


Is it wrong to believe that there will be Muslims in heaven? It is my greatest desire that they too [b]may[/b] acheive salvation by our merciful God. Would it be so disheartening to you to believe that there could be other faiths enjoying a mansion in the house of God? This scripture verse has very deep meaning to this topic. In the end you will not be the judge of any human being, regardless if they are Catholic, Hindu, Muslim or atheist. edit Nor will I have a say in ones' salvation, but it is my greatest desire that there will be other faiths who by the best of their abilities lived a godly life. I put my trust in an all powerful, all loving and just God.

Edited July 4, 2007 by "Kyrie eleison"

[Laudate_Dominum]

I quoted this a couple weeks ago and it is just one example of said definitive teaching (as quoted from the CCC above).

This is from the encyclical [i]Quanto Conficiamur Moerore [/i]of Pope Pius IX promulgates in 1863 (an interesting year in history).

[quote]7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.[/quote]

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1311963' date='Jul 4 2007, 12:57 AM']I can give you Saint Augustine's take, which happens to be reflected throughout the history of Catholic thought.

"The many mansions point to the different grades of merit in that one eternal life. For there is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differs from another star in glory; and so also the resurrection of the dead. The saints, like the stars in the sky, obtain in the kingdom different mansions of diverse degrees of brightness; but on account of that one penny no one is cut off from the kingdom; and God will be all in all in such a way, that, as God is love, love will bring it about that what is possessed by each will be common to all. For in this way every one really possesses it, when he loves to see in another what he has not himself. There will not, therefore, be any envying amid this diversity of brightness, since in all of them will be reigning the unity of love." - St. Augustine, [i]Tractates on the Gospel of John[/i], No. 67

Again, the Catechism of the Council of Trent:

"For in my Father's house, says our Lord, there are many mansions, in which shall be distributed rewards of greater and of less value according to each one's deserts. He who soweth sparingly, shall also reap sparingly: and he who soweth in blessings, shall also reap blessings." - Catechism of Trent, Article XII[/quote]

That is so profound and thank you for posting this.