Death, Atonement And Evolution

[The Joey-O]

I don't want to get into a debate about whether or not evolution is real. For this discussion, I want everyone who posts to assume that macro-evolution, in general, is real.

If one believes in macro-evolution, one would have to believe that death existed prior to Man's Fall (since evolution requires millions of generations being born and dying off). If this is the case, then why was it necessary for Christ to die and conquer death?

Edited July 2, 2007 by The Joey-O

[Guest ShoelessMichael]

[quote name='The Joey-O' post='1309250' date='Jul 2 2007, 05:27 PM']I don't want to get into a debate about whether or not evolution is real. For this discussion, I want everyone who posts to assume that macro-evolution, in general, is real.

If one believes in macro-evolution, one would have to believe that death existed prior to Man's Fall (since evolution requires millions of generations being born and dying off). If this is the case, then why was it necessary for Christ to die and conquer death?[/quote]

No, you would not have to hold to death of man prior to the fall. There could be many previous generations up until the point that man was formed (created). As soon as the first pair of rational animals (man) were formed, then they would be created in God's image and likeness and would then be immortal due to the immortality of the human soul. You can't have many generations of 'partial' humans. You either are or you aren't. I can't imagine any way that science can determine the exact moment of the transition to rationality. Thus, the 'precursors' of homo sapiens could not be rational (in other words, man).

[Apotheoun]

Death is both natural and -- in the case of man -- a consequence of the ancestral sin.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1309477' date='Jul 2 2007, 01:13 PM']Death is both natural and -- in the case of man -- a consequence of the ancestral sin.[/quote]
The Joey-O poses an excellent question. In my reading of the Bible, death is a result of the Fall and affects all living things.

[i]19: For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God;
20: for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope;
21: because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22: We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now;
23: and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.[/i]

Rm. 8:19-23

What's clear from this passage is that a) creation was "damaged" by the Fall, and b) will be "fixed" in our resurrection. Paul clearly teaches that death is the result of sin, and that freedom from sin is freedom from death.

[i]54: When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
55: "O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?"
56: The sting of death is sin...[/i]

1 Cor. 15:54-56a

Taking The Joey-O's given that macro-evolution is real, and that death is the consequence of the Fall, and will be done away with after the Fall, all I can posit is that Death worked retroactively throughout the ages of the Earth in fulfillment of God's plan but will cease to be part of the natural cycle, since, indeed, nature is currently broken, and therefore "unnatural."

[Apotheoun]

Death is natural to created beings, because God creates them [i]ex nihilo[/i]. Thus, creatures do not contain innately within themselves the power to exist, and this is even true of man when he is first created. In other words, man is created only with the potential to become eternal, but this potential requires that man live virtuously in likeness to God.

Now, in the Byzantine tradition, following the teaching of the Eastern Fathers, there is a distinction to be made between man's being created in the image of God, and his being made in the divine likeness. From the very beginning the image of God is essential to humanity; and so, Adam possesses the divine image in full act, while the likeness to God is acquired through the life of virtue in synergy with the divine energy, and Adam only possesses this in potency. Of course, as the Genesis narrative reveals, Adam fails to "liken" (Gr., [i]omoiosis[/i], i.e., assimilate) himself to God, and by his failure he brings death to himself and to all of his descendants, but death is not what God intends for humanity, although it is something that Adam -- and all men after him -- can choose. That said, it is clear that the ancestral sin of Adam dooms humanity to annihilation, but as the Eastern Fathers explain (and in particular St. Irenaeus and St. Athanasios) the incarnation of the eternal Logos restores the communion with God lost by Adam in the beginning, and opens up once again to man the possibility of integrating his nature with his hypostasis (i.e., person) in order to live virtuously, and in the process to transcend his created existence. This assimilation to God through grace (i.e., divine energy) and virtue is called [i]theosis[/i] (i.e., divinization), and this eternal and uncreated gift of [i]theosis[/i] was part of God’s plan for humanity from the very beginning.

Finally, as far as creation in general is concerned, it is finite by its very nature, and it is only deified by man as a part of his own [i]theosis[/i] (divinization), because man is properly the priest of creation. As St. Maximos the Confessor explained in his “Chapters on Love,” being is given through creation, and ever-being through the incarnation, while ever-well-being (i.e., the vision of God) or ever-ill-being (i.e., damnation) are in the power of man's will in cooperation with the divine energy.

God bless,
Todd

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1309531' date='Jul 2 2007, 02:25 PM']Death is natural to created beings, because God creates them [i]ex nihilo[/i]. Thus, creatures do not contain innately within themselves the power to exist, and this is even true of man when he is first created. In other words, man is created only with the potential to become eternal, but this potential requires that man live virtuously in likeness to God.

Now, in the Byzantine tradition, following the teaching of the Eastern Fathers, there is a distinction to be made between man's being created in the image of God, and his being made in the divine likeness. From the very beginning the image of God is essential to humanity; and so, Adam possesses the divine image in full act, while the likeness to God is acquired through the life of virtue in synergy with the divine energy, and Adam only possesses this in potency. Of course, as the Genesis narrative reveals, Adam fails to "liken" (Gr., [i]omoiosis[/i], i.e., assimilate) himself to God, and by his failure he brings death to himself and to all of his descendants, but death is not what God intends for humanity, although it is something that Adam -- and all men after him -- can choose. That said, it is clear that the ancestral sin of Adam dooms humanity to annihilation, but as the Eastern Fathers explain (and in particular St. Irenaeus and St. Athanasios) the incarnation of the eternal Logos restores the communion with God lost by Adam in the beginning, and opens up once again to man the possibility of integrating his nature with his hypostasis (i.e., person) in order to live virtuously, and in the process to transcend his created existence. This assimilation to God through grace (i.e., divine energy) and virtue is called [i]theosis[/i] (i.e., divinization), and this eternal and uncreated gift of [i]theosis[/i] was part of God’s plan for humanity from the very beginning.

Finally, as far as creation in general is concerned, it is finite by its very nature, and it is only deified by man as a part of his own [i]theosis[/i] (divinization), because man is properly the priest of creation. As St. Maximos the Confessor explained in his “Chapters on Love,” being is given through creation, and ever-being through the incarnation, while ever-well-being (i.e., the vision of God) or ever-ill-being (i.e., damnation) are in the power of man's will in cooperation with the divine energy.

God bless,
Todd[/quote]

I think I almost understand

One point of clarification: when Christ returns and we are glorified, will nature also be glorified through our priesthood, and will death even in nature then cease?

[Apotheoun]

Yes, the whole of creation will be glorified in the eschaton, which means that corruption and death will cease entirely.

As St. Paul said, "God [will] be all in all." (1 Cor. 15:28)

[Paddington]

In light of the other great comments (which are tough to comprehend).........this question might be due to my own misunderstanding.........If Jesus saved people that lived before the Incarnation, can Adam affect the people before his existence?