Do You Pray In Latin?

[Era Might]

No, I wasn't saying that YOU were casting aspersions, I was just making the distinction for the larger issue. I don't have a problem with YOU preserving the Latin language, just that I think it needs to be kept in mind by everyone that we should do so without casting aspersions on others. Sorry, I should have been clearer.

[StColette]

I'm horrible with Latin Thank the Lord for sending me Micah who knows it very well lol

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1307411' date='Jun 30 2007, 10:52 PM']No, I wasn't saying that YOU were casting aspersions, I was just making the distinction for the larger issue. I don't have a problem with YOU preserving the Latin language, just that I think it needs to be kept in mind by everyone that we should do so without casting aspersions on others. Sorry, I should have been clearer. [/quote]
In case you didn't see it I amended my last post to read thus:

I don't think you were actually trying to misrepresent my post, but your opening line, "there is nothing wrong with learning, using, and advancing Latin, as long as you do not cast aspersions on Catholics who pray in a different language", implies that I was casting aspersions or at least sanctioning such a thing. [b]I'm sure you intended nothing of this sort but I feared that a reader who had perhaps failed to read my original post in its entirety would get that impression.[/b]

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='StColette' post='1307412' date='Jun 30 2007, 10:53 PM']I'm horrible with Latin Thank the Lord for sending me Micah who knows it very well lol[/quote]
Haha, yeah. You two should come again over some time. I hope you like traditional Japanese food.

[geetarplayer]

I'm learning how to [i]chant[/i] in Latin. Eh? Eh?

I can probably say the Hail Mary in Latin, and I'm learning how to say the Lord's Prayer.

Oh! I can say them both in Spanish. Eh? :

-Mark

[StColette]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1307414' date='Jun 30 2007, 10:55 PM']Haha, yeah. You two should come again over some time. I hope you like traditional Japanese food. [/quote]


Oooh I love Japanese food!!!! Micah is in Louisiana until July 12th and then will be leaving permanently August 2nd or 3rd. So we'll have to definitely plan something!

[Era Might]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1307409' date='Jun 30 2007, 11:50 PM']Quite frankly I don't think we have a real dispute on this subject. We both admit that Latin is more than some dead language that the Church used to use, and now, "good riddance". And we both agree that there is value in the use of the vernacular. I feel safe in assuming that we are both equally interested in having minds conformed to the teachings and spirit of the Church so I don't see how we can truly disagree in essence.

I do detect a certain difference in emphasis as I have explicitly stated a desire to affirm the use of Latin in Liturgy and private devotion in the face of a contemporary scene in which Latin is a rarity. You seem more interested in stressing the fact that there is good reason and value behind the use of the vernacular. If this assessment is true than we agree in substance but differ in emphasis. In good old traditional Catholic manner I am prepared to agree to disagree. [/quote]
That sounds about right.

Ecce quam bonum et quam jucundum, habitare fratres in unum! :

[StColette]

[quote name='geetarplayer' post='1307418' date='Jun 30 2007, 10:56 PM']I'm learning how to [i]chant[/i] in Latin. Eh? Eh?

I can probably say the Hail Mary in Latin, and I'm learning how to say the Lord's Prayer.

Oh! I can say them both in Spanish. Eh? :

-Mark[/quote]

lol most difficult prayers I think I've ever had to attempt lol was the Prayer of St. Francis lol

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1307424' date='Jun 30 2007, 10:58 PM']That sounds about right.

Ecce quam bonum et quam jucundum, habitare fratres in unum! :

[/quote]
LOL!

And if I may add one thing it would be that the two perspectives that we seem to represent are no doubt needed in the Church today. While I agree that we disagree I do not go so far as to claim that my own perspective is objectively superior. But I would say that mine is subjectively superior. :

hehe, just teasing.

[Laudate_Dominum]

In case some are curious I should like to make a couple of remarks about my own use of Latin as a language of devotion. For the record I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong or cheap about vernacular prayer. On the contrary there are at least as many points that could be made on the fittingness of vernacular prayer. This is not a Latin vs. vernacular reflection, am I simply attempted to share a few of the many reasons why I have found Latin to be a spiritually enriching language in my prayer life. And yes, this is only a few of the reasons, I must pick up my wife so I don’t have time to carry on ad infinitum.

The pious incorporation of Latin into one’s spiritual life creates a kind of sacred space in which prayer and devotion can be offered to God in a manner of speech which transcends the ordinary and earthly. Certainly the prayer of the heart is higher than vocal prayer, but the Catholic spiritual life necessarily involves more than strictly interior contemplative prayer. The most obvious example would be communal prayer (such a liturgy), but even apart from this there are devotional practices which are highly encouraged (i.e., the rosary) which ought to ideally engage the body. In the case of the rosary we have a primacy of the heart but this is coupled with the active meditation on the mysteries, the uttering of the words, and even the fingers on the beads.

I like to compare the devotional use of Latin in private prayer with the use of Hebrew among Jews as a sacred language of prayer (something which was a part of the Judaism that Christ Himself practiced).
As I have experienced it, devotional Latin has a way of making present the historical patrimony of the Roman Church. As the baptized parlance of the historical Church, the language of Her theology and dogma, the language of Her Liturgy down through the ages, the devotional language of innumerable saints, I find it impossible to make utterance to God in this language without an immediate awareness of the dignity and sanctity of that which I am doing as well as of the Communion of Saints in our midst.

I don’t pray exclusively in Latin, but there are times when it strikes me as meet and just, from a devotional point of view—and I certainly advocate the rosary in Latin.
It is not so much this way in America, but in many cultures there is an explicitly formal way of speaking to persons (typically elders or superiors) which indicates the respect that is their due. In many cases we find distinct vocabulary and linguistic rules which are employed to denote respect. I would draw another analogy here with regards to devotional Latin prayer. I have experienced first hand (albeit through ignorance) how a lack of sensitivity to such things can result in significant offense. This is perhaps a flat analogy for Americans (indeed many modern westerners) since we are so egalitarian and tend to have little appreciation, or even awareness, of such things. I witness examples of this more or less every time I dine at an authentic Japanese restaurant in this country. I suppose that the obvious objections to this analogy would perhaps resemble those “arguments” made by some Catholics against kneeling at Mass, ornate Churches and sacred music.

Of course my “formal speech” analogy could be responded to by saying that it is enough to simply avoid disrespectful or vulgar speech according to the norms of one’s language and culture. While I would say that this is true enough, I would also clarify that this analogy was not intended as an argument for Latin prayer, so much as an allusion to one of its benefits. By default the use of Latin in prayer disposes one toward reverential awareness and the apprehension of the sacred—in my experience at least. I am sure that this devotion is not for everyone, but I am also sure that there is much to be discovered in this practice and much benefit that could be reaped by a great many people. It seems like something worth mentioning at the very least.

[Laudate_Dominum]

I thought of an analogy which may sum up my previous post.
Continuing with the sacred space motif (of my previous post) one might say that Latin prayer is like praying in a sublime church while kneeling, we might then describe vernacular prayer as the prayers that one utters throughout the day in the normal setting of one’s life. According to this picture then it would seem that there are times in prayer which in a sense indicate the immanence of God in our daily life and deeds, and then there are times in prayer which acknowledge and encounter God in His transcendence and lofty majesty. I would suggest that this scenario describes, by way of a picture, two aspects of a full spirituality and that the devotional use of Latin can be a most fitting and profitable aid in cultivating and expressing this transcendent aspect of intimacy with God. I am of course speaking in a metaphorical way; the life of prayer is not so static.

[melporcristo]

Uh ... I pray in Spanish - that's gotta count for something!

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='melporcristo' post='1307627' date='Jul 1 2007, 01:57 AM']Uh ... I pray in Spanish - that's gotta count for something![/quote]
I pray the Rosary in Spanish on occasion for reasons that I can't explain. I would definitely agree that it's gotta count for something. :

[Laudate_Dominum]

As an interesting aside:

[quote]Apologia pro Munere Suo ('A Defense of His Work')
November 2006By Daniel B. Gallagher

The Rev. Daniel B. Gallagher is Assistant Professor of Theology and Director of Graduate Seminarians at Sacred Heart Major Seminary in Detroit, Michigan.

It never fails. The moment I loosen my Roman collar and settle in for a long flight, a fellow passenger pops the question: "So, Father, what do you do?" Running down the list of my ministerial responsibilities, this one intrigues them the most: "I teach Latin in the seminary."

"Really? Priests still have to know that? Didn't the Church get rid of Latin after Vatican II? What do seminarians have to know a dead language for?"

Yes, yes, no, and I would never bother teaching anyone a dead language.

Catholics usually are more perplexed by the requirement for seminarians to learn Latin than non-Catholics, who more often presume, with a sense of fascination, that Latin still has a place in the Church. But not only do I find myself proffering apologiae ("defenses") to strangers on airplanes, but to brother priests, and even -- ne dicam! ("Would that I didn't have to say it!") -- some bishops.

The short answer to why seminarians need to learn Latin is pure and simple: Canon 249. According to the Code of Canon Law, seminarians are not merely to have a cursory introduction to Latin, "sed etiam linguam latinam bene calleant" ("but they should also know Latin well"). Quite frankly, that means if a candidate for the priesthood hasn't understood the Latin phrases I've used so far, it's highly questionable whether he should be ordained. So ultimately, I teach seminarians Latin not because I think it's a good idea, or my seminary thinks it's a good idea, but because the Church says that seminarians need to know Latin -- and know it well.

Every time I point this out, immediately an objection is held up for my consideration: "What about St. John Vianney?" Ad primum sic proceditur ("thus, we proceed to the first point" -- a stock phrase from the Summa Theologiae). From his case, it would seem that a knowledge of Latin is not necessary to be admitted to the priesthood. Sed contra ("on the contrary"), the holy Curé d'Ars corroborates my case all the more. Respondeo dicendum quod ("I answer that") although he did struggle with Latin throughout his entire priestly training, what is remarkable about him is not that he was ordained despite his ignorance of Latin, but that he came to acquire a strong enough knowledge of Latin to be ordained. He was not the beneficiary of an exception to the rule, but rather he exceptionally met the rule through perseverance. And if he was capable of attaining such a state of saintliness by persevering in his Latin studies, so can anyone else who puts his mind to it and begs for divine aide.[/quote]
[url="http://www.newoxfordreview.org/article.jsp?did=1106-gallagher"]http://www.newoxfordreview.org/article.jsp...=1106-gallagher[/url]

[jiyoung]

For myself, I like to go to Mass in Latin and chant in Latin and all, but when it comes to me praying by myself, it really depends--sometimes I like to say the Ave in Latin, but most of the time I'll say memorized prayers in English because I usually don't have them memorized in Latin. I also sometimes like to say the prayers slowly and sort of "savor" each word, and it's harder for me to do that in Latin because, as much as I love it, I don't speak it fluently nor understand each word. English is the language I think in, even though Korean is my first language, so English is usually the language I pray in. But one of my favorite things that I did with the Carmelites on a come and see a year or two ago was pray the rosary together in Latin.