Matt 19:12

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote]12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage[a]because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."[/quote]

[quote]Eunuchs: A castrated man employed as a harem attendant or as a functionary in certain Asian courts.
A man or boy whose testes are nonfunctioning or have been removed.
Informal An ineffectual, powerless, or unmasculine man.[/quote]

We know that Origen took this literally, how does the church interpret this scripture?

[abercius24]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1303014' date='Jun 27 2007, 02:27 AM']We know that Origen took this literally, how does the church interpret this scripture?[/quote]

The Church holds the last "voluntary" scenario is a metaphorical reference to celibacy. Christ nor the Church would ever support physical mutilation. The sexual organs are sacred instruments of life and must be treated with great respect. Christ speaks here as he did when speaking of plucking out the offending eye or cutting off the offending hand, metaphorically; better yet, spiritually.

Mose Catholic scholars also recognize that Origen was not the more accurate of the Church Fathers, and like Turtullian, eventually became a heretic.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='abercius24' post='1303026' date='Jun 27 2007, 01:53 AM']The Church holds the last "voluntary" scenario is a metaphorical reference to celibacy. Christ nor the Church would ever support physical mutilation. The sexual organs are sacred instruments of life and must be treated with great respect. Christ speaks here as he did when speaking of plucking out the offending eye or cutting off the offending hand, metaphorically; better yet, spiritually.

Mose Catholic scholars also recognize that Origen was not the more accurate of the Church Fathers, and like Turtullian, eventually became a heretic.[/quote]

Word, yeah I know that nearly every historical Christian Church adheres to Nicea that rebuked [thou didn't condemn] Origen for his self mutilation acts, but then I'd read online somewhere that he'd based it upon this scripture and I was curious as to how he could have taken it like that, and if so why... and what the church officially preaches about it.

[Budge]

Origen was an early deceiver.

found THIS very interesting about Origen...
[b]
Quote:His name perhaps derives from a Graeco-Egyptian origin. It is formed of the Greek terminal element γενης (genēs), meaning "born", and the name of the Egyptian god Horus (pronounced Hōr in Coptic Egyptian). Thus, his name may mean "Horus-born".[/b]

Origen's full name was apparently Ōrigenēs Adamantios (Ὠριγενης Ἀδαμαντιος) , with Adamantios, his nickname, meaning 'man of diamond' (the word ἀδαμας, adamas, means 'a material that cannot be tamed').

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen[/url]

One question about Origen, why is the Catholic Church embracing him more and more? {Benedict did a speech praising him very recently, it used to be he was known for having error}

[mod]Please don't link there. --Era Might[/mod]

Origen really was the Origin of ERROR!



Ive been noticing how the Pope has been pushing all the great deceivers, and now today, Mr Origen, wannabe pagan eunuch who distorted the Word of God, infiltrating paganism and false philosophy is praised even.


Origen was more into Greek Philsophy more then Christianity. The man was prolific writing up to 2,000 books.

He Didnt believe in Old Testament miracles, didnt believe the Holy Spirit was eternal, and was one of the first to add the Apocrypha to scripture.


When he read this verse, of course he misunderstood it.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='abercius24' post='1303026' date='Jun 27 2007, 08:53 AM']The Church holds the last "voluntary" scenario is a metaphorical reference to celibacy. Christ nor the Church would ever support physical mutilation. The sexual organs are sacred instruments of life and must be treated with great respect. Christ speaks here as he did when speaking of plucking out the offending eye or cutting off the offending hand, metaphorically; better yet, spiritually.

Mose Catholic scholars also recognize that Origen was not the more accurate of the Church Fathers, and like Turtullian, eventually became a heretic.[/quote]

Thank you for the response - makes sense.

[quote name='Budge' post='1303039' date='Jun 27 2007, 12:41 PM']Origen was an early deceiver.

found THIS very interesting about Origen...
[b]
Quote:His name perhaps derives from a Graeco-Egyptian origin. It is formed of the Greek terminal element γενης (genēs), meaning "born", and the name of the Egyptian god Horus (pronounced Hōr in Coptic Egyptian). Thus, his name may mean "Horus-born".[/b]

Origen's full name was apparently Ōrigenēs Adamantios (Ὠριγενης Ἀδαμαντιος) , with Adamantios, his nickname, meaning 'man of diamond' (the word ἀδαμας, adamas, means 'a material that cannot be tamed').

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen[/url]

One question about Origen, why is the Catholic Church embracing him more and more? {Benedict did a speech praising him very recently, it used to be he was known for having error}

[mod]Please don't link there. --Era Might[/mod]

Origen really was the Origin of ERROR!
Ive been noticing how the Pope has been pushing all the great deceivers, and now today, Mr Origen, wannabe pagan eunuch who distorted the Word of God, infiltrating paganism and false philosophy is praised even.
Origen was more into Greek Philsophy more then Christianity. The man was prolific writing up to 2,000 books.

He Didnt believe in Old Testament miracles, didnt believe the Holy Spirit was eternal, and was one of the first to add the Apocrypha to scripture.
When he read this verse, of course he misunderstood it.[/quote]


I really fail to see how the meaning of someone's name (which that person did not choose, btw) has anything to do with them as a person. My middle name means "a snare" but that has nothing to do with who I am or my beliefs (and my parents had no idea that's what it meant, they just liked the name).

Yes, Origen messed up. He became a heretic in his beliefs and has been labeled as such. His being a prolific writer has nothing to do with that, either, btw. It was also my understanding (though I could be mistaken) that he did indeed start out with orthodox beliefs, but later adopted heretical beliefs.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Budge' post='1303039' date='Jun 27 2007, 05:41 AM']One question about Origen, why is the Catholic Church embracing him more and more? {Benedict did a speech praising him very recently, it used to be he was known for having error}[/quote] Budge, I'm not sure if you're aware, but this discussion isn't about origen, it's about the scriptures [which you didn't even address] but while you're discussing Origen, let me say that it's not a surprise that you condemn him, as you condemn everyone of the Alexandrian school of thought, everyone of the councils, including those that compiled the very bible that you claim loyality to, so why did you need to write that about origen, when we already knew where you stand on him?

However, in support for His Holiness [yes I really do mean that] Pope Benedict [who's numbers, I cannot remember so forgive me], not all of Origen's writings, philosophies, etc were heretical. As a matter of fact, he was instrumental in suppressing a mass amount of heresies throughout Christendom. He might not be considered a "Saint" but he's considered to have been helpful in Christianity. He was simply mislead at times, and a "work in progress", whom was martyred for his faith. Arius was a deliberate heretic, and a prideful one at that, while Origen was simply led astray. I'm posetive that many of your accusations against him are based in false truths, just as your many assumptions of His Holiness Pope Benedict.

[quote]He Didnt believe in Old Testament miracles, didnt believe the Holy Spirit was eternal, and was one of the first to add the Apocrypha to scripture.[/quote]That's not true, all Jews used these scripture that you consider "Apocrypha" it until the council of Jamnia.

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1303053' date='Jun 27 2007, 06:36 AM']
I really fail to see how the meaning of someone's name (which that person did not choose, btw) has anything to do with them as a person. My middle name means "a snare" but that has nothing to do with who I am or my beliefs (and my parents had no idea that's what it meant, they just liked the name).[/quote] Totally agreed, if Budge did her research and was cultured, she'd see that my name, "Reza" came from a Muslim Saint figure, Imam Reza. Being that I'm named after him, I'm "@#$%ed" in her book probably.

[quote]Yes, Origen messed up. He became a heretic in his beliefs and has been labeled as such. His being a prolific writer has nothing to do with that, either, btw. It was also my understanding (though I could be mistaken) that he did indeed start out with orthodox beliefs, but later adopted heretical beliefs.[/quote] Definately, he was part of the Alexandrian theological school and thou he was rebuked for his castration [self mutilation] at the Council of Nicea, he wasn't condemned a heretic because of this [thou the Coptic Church never condemned him, they just simply told him that his selective heretical teachings weren't welcomed in Egypt], it was his teachings themselves that were wrong. Even Origen later repented in regards to his self mutilation.

Reza

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1303085' date='Jun 27 2007, 02:37 PM']Budge, I'm not sure if you're aware, but this discussion isn't about origen, it's about the scriptures [which you didn't even address] but while you're discussing Origen, let me say that it's not a surprise that you condemn him, as you condemn everyone of the Alexandrian school of thought, everyone of the councils, including those that compiled the very bible that you claim loyality to, so why did you need to write that about origen, when we already knew where you stand on him?

However, in support for His Holiness [yes I really do mean that] Pope Benedict [who's numbers, I cannot remember so forgive me], not all of Origen's writings, philosophies, etc were heretical. As a matter of fact, he was instrumental in suppressing a mass amount of heresies throughout Christendom. He might not be considered a "Saint" but he's considered to have been helpful in Christianity. He was simply mislead at times, and a "work in progress", whom was martyred for his faith. Arius was a deliberate heretic, and a prideful one at that, while Origen was simply led astray. I'm posetive that many of your accusations against him are based in false truths, just as your many assumptions of His Holiness Pope Benedict.

That's not true, all Jews used these scripture that you consider "Apocrypha" it until the council of Jamnia.

Totally agreed, if Budge did her research and was cultured, she'd see that my name, "Reza" came from a Muslim Saint figure, Imam Reza. Being that I'm named after him, I'm "@#$%ed" in her book probably.

Definately, he was part of the Alexandrian theological school and thou he was rebuked for his castration [self mutilation] at the Council of Nicea, he wasn't condemned a heretic because of this [thou the Coptic Church never condemned him, they just simply told him that his selective heretical teachings weren't welcomed in Egypt], it was his teachings themselves that were wrong. Even Origen later repented in regards to his self mutilation.

Reza[/quote]

Thanks for clarifying that for me, Reza (about his teachings).

[kafka]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1303014' date='Jun 27 2007, 02:27 AM']We know that Origen took this literally, how does the church interpret this scripture?[/quote]

{19:12} Sunt enim eunuchi, qui de matris utero sic nati sunt: et sunt eunuchi, qui facti sunt ab hominibus: et sunt eunuchi, qui seipsos castraverunt propter regnum cælorum. Qui potest capere capiat.
{19:12} For there are chaste persons who were born so from their mother’s womb, and there are chaste persons who have been made so by men, and there are chaste persons who have made themselves chaste for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever is able to grasp this, let him grasp it.”

~ The translation here prefers ‘chaste persons’ over eunuchs or celibate persons for a number of reasons. First, the term eunuch is used figuratively by Christ, as is the term ‘castraverunt’ (castrated). Second, the term eunuch is obscure today. Third, this passage began with a teaching on the proper behavior of married persons, so it is not solely about virgins or celibate clergy and religious. The term ‘chaste persons’ has sufficient breadth and depth, and is an accurate representation of the meaning of the term.

[Budge]

[quote]everyone of the Alexandrian school of thought, everyone of the councils, including those that compiled the very bible that you claim loyality to, so why did you need to write that about origen, when we already knew where you stand on him?[/quote]

Oh man, I gotta start with this one...

You seriously believe the Alexandrians compiled the BIble?

{Alexandria of Egypt}

Nothing good came out of the Alexandrian school, just error and more....

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Budge' post='1303354' date='Jun 27 2007, 12:42 PM']Oh man, I gotta start with this one...

You seriously believe the Alexandrians compiled the BIble?

{Alexandria of Egypt}

Nothing good came out of the Alexandrian school, just error and more....[/quote]

I didn't say that... I said that the councils did, re-read what I wrote.

[abercius24]

[quote name='Budge' post='1303354' date='Jun 27 2007, 02:42 PM']Oh man, I gotta start with this one...

You seriously believe the Alexandrians compiled the BIble?

{Alexandria of Egypt}

Nothing good came out of the Alexandrian school, just error and more....[/quote]

I know I'm off-topic, but the Septuagint (Old Testament) came from the pre-Christian Alexandrian school, which provides a geneology that is more consistent with the New Testament than the Jamniam Canon (Old Testament) that our separated Protestant brethren use. And as funny as it is, there is a very large late 1990's publication of the NIV Bible that has footnotes recognizing this.

Origen and Turtullian both bought into the ultra-conservative movement of denying the flesh to the extreme, which proved to be heretical on the conservative side. Interestingly enough, Origen is the author of the Glory Be we Catholics pray, so we do give him respect for the great things he has done within the Church.

Edited June 28, 2007 by abercius24