Drinking In The Bible

[dairygirl4u2c]

i have often gotten into debates about drinking and the bible. i often say that jesus drank in support of some drinking. conservatives often like to say that in those days they couldn't drink water, so they drank wine, as that didn't go bad, as grape juice would. (if you can make wine, you can make grape juice)

i've pointed out that that jesus turned water into wine at Cana, so you might think they coudl drink water. it's odd they'd have barrels of water there otherwise. but they often argue that it was for washing hands etc. i don't know about that.

then i point out the one woman at the well was drinking the water. and jesus wanted water. and the bible often talks aboutdrinking water. now, you could say that they drank it, but to be safe referred wine. etc etc. it seems the peole i argue with are getting less of something to stand on.

but does anyuone on here have an insights on this issue?

[dairygirl4u2c]

semi related, but interesting none the less.

[quote]Was the wine that Jesus drank the same as wine today?
Q: I have what you may see as an easy question. What was the difference in the wine JESUS and the disciples drank in comparison to what we have today? Was there any difference at all? I am having a tough time witnessing to people about drinking and how GOD doesn't like it when JESUS is turning water to wine at "gatherings" and drinking with his disciples.
"Gimme" some help on this Pastor.

A: There isn't really much difference between the wine made in Jesus' day and the wine made today. The process of fermentation FOR WINE is similar. However, after the time of the New Testament the invention of distillation rather than fermentation greatly increased the alcoholic content and made liquor possible. This type of strong drink was not available in Bible times. I've attached a PDF file on "wine" from the Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia which has some very good information.

Concerning Jesus turning water to wine at the marriage feast, I believe that God DID approve of Jesus' action. There are a number of references to Jesus drinking wine (examples: Luke 7:34; John 19:29). We know from the writings of the Jewish rabbis and the writings of the early church that the wine used in Passover/communion was one part alcoholic wine to 4 parts water. My understanding of the Bible is that the drinking of wine is acceptable. It is the abuse of alcoholic beverages that is sin. What the Bible speaks against is drunkenness, not drinking.

Q: But how can you drink wine and not feel its affect? People always say "there ain't nothing wrong w/ drinking as long as you don't get drunk", but the truth is even if you only have one glass of wine (not communion wine) you may not be so drunk where you'll fall over, but it will have some affect on you....right? And won't that be bad so to speak in GOD's eyes?

A: Apparently this mild affect of wine isn't bad in God's eyes: "God makes grass grow for the cattle, and plants for man to cultivate - bringing forth food from the earth: wine that gladdens the heart of man, oil to make his face shine, and bread that sustains his heart." (Psalm 104:14-15). Note that in this passage "God makes... wine that gladdens the heart." Wine is viewed as a gift from God.

This discussion of drinking brings up a broader issue that you might want to think about. I think that many Christians have a Greek view rather than a Jewish view of God's creation. By the time of the New Testament, the Greeks had become very anti-materialistic. The Greeks divided reality into two parts: spirit, which they thought of as good, and matter which they thought of as evil (or at the very least inferior to the spirit). This is why the Greeks sought to free their spirit from the body. The goal of this life was to purify the spirit and free it from matter. As a result, the Greeks (and Romans) burned the person's body upon death. The material was evil and something to be left behind. And if you really wanted to free your soul, you would avoid bodily pleasures and material things. The ascetic (the person who did without things) was viewed as the most likely to gain happiness in the next life.

The Jews, on the other hand, followed the Old Testament view of seeing the creation as good. God looked at all He had created and said that "it was very good" (Genesis 1:31). Even after the fall, no "thing" is evil in and of itself (1 Timothy 4:4). The Jews had a very upbeat view of material things. The physical body was viewed as something to take with you into the next life - hence, bodies were not burned, but buried to await resurrection (Genesis 15:15; 23:19-20; 25:9; 35:8,19,29; 47:30; John 19:38-42). The Jewish view of sex (in marriage) is very positive (Proverbs 5:18-19; Song of Songs; 1 Corinthians 7:3-5,33-34; Hebrews 13:4). Likewise food, wine, dancing, money, etc. are all viewed as good things that we can take pleasure in as long as they are used according to God's commandments (Ecclesiastes 5:18-20; 8:15; 9:7-9; Psalm 16:11; Romans 14:14). At the risk of being misunderstood, I believe the Bible teaches a view of "Christian hedonism" - not living for pleasure, but living for God and enjoying all that He has created for our benefit and enjoyment (1 Timothy 4:1-5).

But sometimes Christian views on drinking, sex, or money come more from a Greek perspective than a Biblical perspective. In order to protect ourselves and others or in an attempt to become more holy or pure, we add rules or commandments that aren't in the Bible. But when we do that (even if we do it for a good motive), we have become legalists, rather than grace-oriented children of God. The Bible is clear that drinking alcoholic beverages (without becoming drunk) is an acceptable activity. In fact, Jesus even chose wine as an element for the Lord's supper. ONLY drunkenness is viewed as a sin (Proverbs 23:29-35; Ephesians 5:18). We can be tempted to add to God's commandments, because of the dreadfulness of alcoholism, drunk drivers, or simply observing the stupidity of drunk people. Believe me, I understand the temptation. My college roommate was an alcoholic and I cleaned up his alcoholic vomit on more than one occasion. AND my brother was killed at age 19 by a drunk driver. But we CAN'T try to be more righteous than God! If it isn't prohibited in the Bible or cannot be reasonably deduced from Biblical principles, then it's best that we not add to God's Word.[/quote]

[EJames]

Glory to Jesus Christ!
no time for an response right now...... just a fun copy and paste verses from Holy Scripture..as a former Evangelical Protestant (at a Mennonite College)..., this was a big issue when i was younger...pax et bonum!
-
Proverbs 31:
6 Give beer to those who are perishing,
wine to those who are in anguish;

7 let them drink and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more.
-
or NASB
Proverbs 31
146Give strong drink to him who is perishing,
And wine to him whose life is bitter.
7Let him drink and forget his poverty
And remember his troubles no more.
--

Psalm 104:14-15 (New King James Version)
He (God)causes the grass to grow for the cattle,
And vegetation for the service of man,
That he may bring forth food from the earth,
15 And wine that makes glad( Hebrew;'giddy;') the heart of man,
Oil to make his face shine,
And bread which strengthens man’s heart.
---------------

Mathew
18For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking(fermented wine), and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' But wisdom is proved right by her actions."
-
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[img]http://membres.lycos.fr/pierquet/images/img1.gif[/img]

Edited June 27, 2007 by EJames

[prose]

I always think about Canaa... And I can't help but come up with this:

Jesus turned water into wine, not just to drink, but to make people who were ALREADY intoxicated even drunker. If it was a sin, why would Jesus have encouraged a sin.

I have heard the line "because he was listening to his mother", but then why would MAry have encouraged sin?

[quote]They did so, 9and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10and said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.[/quote]

This implies (to me) that the guests have had too much to drink (i. were drunk), nad then Jesus supplied MORE wine.

[kujo]

[quote name='prose' post='1303297' date='Jun 27 2007, 02:55 PM']This implies (to me) that the guests have had too much to drink (i. were drunk), nad then Jesus supplied MORE wine.[/quote]

I don't think that it means that the guests were drunk, just that all of the wine had been consumed. Now, if there were only 5 or 6 people at this wedding...

[kujo]

I have always been told that drinking, in moderation, is okay. A few beers or a couple glasses of wine is fine. It's all about intent, if you ask me. If you [b]intend[/b] to get go out, drink and get trashed, yeah that's a sin. If you [b]intend[/b] to go to a party where there is alcohol and you don't have the ability to control yourself, yeah that's a sin too.

[prose]

[quote name='kujo' post='1303331' date='Jun 27 2007, 01:29 PM']I don't think that it means that the guests were drunk, just that all of the wine had been consumed. Now, if there were only 5 or 6 people at this wedding...[/quote]

Why would it have specifically said " after the guests have had too much to drink;" and not "when the drink had run out"?

I am not saying I am all for getting trashed, I am simply saying that if drinking were a sin, Jesus would not have partaken in anything that would have encouraged people to drink.

[Socrates]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1302941' date='Jun 26 2007, 11:13 PM']i have often gotten into debates about drinking and the bible. i often say that jesus drank in support of some drinking. conservatives often like to say that in those days they couldn't drink water, so they drank wine, as that didn't go bad, as grape juice would. (if you can make wine, you can make grape juice)

i've pointed out that that jesus turned water into wine at Cana, so you might think they coudl drink water. it's odd they'd have barrels of water there otherwise. but they often argue that it was for washing hands etc. i don't know about that.

then i point out the one woman at the well was drinking the water. and jesus wanted water. and the bible often talks aboutdrinking water. now, you could say that they drank it, but to be safe referred wine. etc etc. it seems the peole i argue with are getting less of something to stand on.

but does anyuone on here have an insights on this issue?[/quote]
What exactly is the debate here?
Whether people in Biblical times drank water?
Or whether its acceptable today to drink alcohol?

[quote]conservatives often like to say that in those days they couldn't drink water, so they drank wine, as that didn't go bad, as grape juice would. (if you can make wine, you can make grape juice)[/quote]
I really don't see what this has to do specifically with "conservatives."
The fact is that in those days alchoholic beverages often were safer to drink, as it killed bacteria that could be found in water.

And I've hardly known any conservatives who are teetotalers. If that's what you're talking about, that has more to do with certain religious sects than it does with conservatism in general. (Heck, I've seen quite a few right-wing drunks, for that matter!)

[dairygirl4u2c]

well i've never come across a liberal againt drinking. i live in a conservative area, family included so. i could imagine a few liberal peopel in theory who thinks it's wrong to drink though so. something like i personally oppose it but others should be able to drink etc. or finding ways that it hurts God and society or whatever.

yea i'll clarify. i was looking for whether people drank wine only as an alterantive to water. people like jesus. or if they did it also for the effect andor coolness andor custom etc.

Edited June 28, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[Socrates]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1303710' date='Jun 27 2007, 07:37 PM']well i've never come across a liberal againt drinking. i live in a conservative area, family included so. i could imagine a few liberal peopel in theory who thinks it's wrong to drink though so. something like i personally oppose it but others should be able to drink etc. or finding ways that it hurts God and society or whatever.

yea i'll clarify. i was looking for whether people drank wine only as an alterantive to water. people like jesus. or if they did it also for the effect andor coolness andor custom etc.[/quote]
People have enjoyed alcohol from time immemorial, ever since the stuff was discovered.

Edited June 28, 2007 by Socrates

[Kirisutodo333]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1303710' date='Jun 27 2007, 09:37 PM']well i've never come across a liberal againt drinking. i live in a conservative area, family included so. i could imagine a few liberal peopel in theory who thinks it's wrong to drink though so. something like i personally oppose it but others should be able to drink etc. or finding ways that it hurts God and society or whatever.

yea i'll clarify. i was looking for whether people drank wine only as an alterantive to water. people like jesus. or if they did it also for the effect andor coolness andor custom etc.[/quote]

WOW!

How about taste?

How ignorant and narrow minded must one be to think that there needs to be some type of sinful motive behind drinking wine?

The sin is in the ABUSE of wine, not in drinking wine itself. And by "abuse" I mean knowingly consuming wine for the sole purpose of getting drunk.

How does having one, small cup of wine hurt God?

[Didymus]

let's settle this over a bottle of Dewars, shall we?

[kujo]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1303809' date='Jun 27 2007, 11:28 PM']let's settle this over a bottle of Dewars, shall we?[/quote]

How about a nice Guiness?

[img]http://rlove.org/images/guinness_20040423.jpg[/img]

[prose]

Crown Royal and Coke for me please...

[img]http://www.awa.dk/whisky/seagrams/crownroyal.jpg[/img]

[kujo]

[quote name='prose' post='1304532' date='Jun 28 2007, 06:27 PM']Crown Royal and Coke for me please...

[img]http://www.awa.dk/whisky/seagrams/crownroyal.jpg[/img][/quote]

Excellent choice, though lately I've been in a whiskey-sour phase.

Here's a good idea. Someone should come up with a mixology book with Catholic-themed drinks. Kinda like "The Bad Catholic's Guide to Good Living."