Commands Of God

[dairygirl4u2c]

is god unreasonable? thoughts?

[quote]In the Bible, the book of Numbers, chapter 31, verse 15 reads: "And Moses said unto them, "have you saved all the women alive?"
And verses 17 and 18 reads: "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. (18) But all the women children, that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."[/quote][quote]The Bible says in Exodus 10, verse 27, "But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go." Then in verse 29; we read "And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of the Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle."[/quote]
I guess it does say he hardened his heart, which could mean that it was bad what Pharaoh did, and that the Lord did it is like sort of indirectly.

[quote]In the Bible (Deut. 28, verse 16) God is made to say: "But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth."[/quote]

Edited June 26, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[Groo the Wanderer]

Perfect illustration backing the Catholic teaching that the Bible must be read in the context of the whole Word.


bravo! bravo!



As you so skillfully point out, one can NOT take a single passage and place it is it's own context, then expect to interpret it as God intended.

Good job!

[dairygirl4u2c]

the purpose of this thread is for debate. if you think it's out of context, especially the last quote, then show how the context matters.

[dairygirl4u2c]

the purpose of this thread is for debate. if you think it's out of context, especially the last quote, then show how the context matters.

otherwise, seemingly, you're using an argument that works many times (taking out of context), in an area where it can't work, and effectively side stepping the issue. this is how people stay ignorant. from a catholic perspective, you'd say that's how they never become catholic.

of course, i don't think God is unreasonable. the bible might not be perfect, that's a possibility in my mind but.

[dairygirl4u2c]

wasn't sodom and gamorrah destroyed because of their evil ways? including many innocent?

there's a lot mroe to this thread than saying things are being taken out of context.

of course, groo is the type that makes snide remarks and never sticks around to debate anything, let alone debate anything of substance, even when he's in the wrong.

edit: the last quote is deut twenty, not twenty eight.

Edited June 27, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

[url="http://www.religioustolerance.org/imm_bibl.htm#menu"]http://www.religioustolerance.org/imm_bibl.htm#menu[/url]

not that anyone cares or is keeping track, but i have officially decided that the bible is not the word for word Word of God. it's inspired but it's not the word of God. i for one am not going to feign ignorance that these passages exist. i could argue that my standard of morality is wrong, and the bible is true. but i have no reason to do that; God gave us reason and we are images of God so I can't disregard that. not even the bible claims that it's inerrant or true and i challenge you to show otherwise with something significant.

best cites from scripture for inerrancy:
"scripture is profitable". that means that it's inspired, but doesn't mean it's inerrant. poor choice of word to me. the very word profitable means not inerrant
"the bible says you are gods, and the scripture cannot be broken, so why be upset?": quote from Jesus. but i think he was saying, by your own standards we call each other gods, so why get upset i am the son of God?

Edited June 27, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[Budge]

[quote]not that anyone cares or is keeping track, but i have officially decided that the bible is not the word for word Word of God. it's inspired but it's not the word of God. i[/quote]

well I feel sorry for you....

Actually when the Israelites killed those other people including that verse you illustrate, it had to do with the Nephilim and interrelations with them.

Remember how Goliath was a GIANT?

Groo, so what is the CATHOLIC INTERPRETATION of those verses?

{oops there isnt one!}

[dairygirl4u2c]

notice also, jesus said "doesn't it say in your law that you are gods". i think that he says "your" law is significant. he's saying "by your own standard not necessarily the true standard"
of course for a non infallible book i shouldn't gett too preoccupied by details, just saying.

i notice everyone likes to not address the issues of this thread, or those in that link. they prefer to pretend it does not exist. "it's just the old testament" excuses excuses etc etc. that's really what's wrong with religion, people can't let themselves think for themselves.

God killed the first borns, forcedt hose who were raped to marry the raper, killed whole cities etc etc but no one seems to care.

[Budge]

Maybe you need to actually read and study the BIble, to find out why God did those things.

You sound just like the authors in my anti-Bible collection I owned when I was a UU, yeah I had a collection of books that disavowed the Bible.

Study it enough you may get somewhere and no longer be lost in these delusions. I was where you were once.

You need to study and stop floundering around asking questions youll never get answers for otherwise.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i'll research until i find the answers, or i realize that no one can give any. at the point they are ignoring the texts, and hardliners are saying it's all true and smell of elderberries it up, i'll know i've made the right choice. that's the way i roll. i've researched it enough that's i've decided what i do, but i won't stop. especially as the mroe i read the more i realize the truth.

[url="http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm"]http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.evilbible.com/Slavery.htm"]http://www.evilbible.com/Slavery.htm[/url]
www.evilbible.com

[kamiller42]

dairygirl4u2c,

The Word of God is infallible. Our individual understanding is fallible.

The Church has been working thousands of years to understand the true meaning of the texts of the Bible. On many passages, it has taken an official interpretation. On others, more work needs to be done.

The challenge to interpreting scripture is understanding the social, economic, political, cultural traditions, language, and other variables of the time. On easy example I give all the time is to think about what someone 8,000 years ago might think if I said "Hey! That's cool!" They would ask what's wrong with the weather.

Another active area of research is getting to the original text. This is affected by human error in translation. We don't have the originals but by comparing the numerous copies of manuscripts and our increased understanding of ancient languages, we can derive more accurate translations even without the originals.

With all of these factors affecting our understanding scripture, it stresses even more the necessity for a Magesterium, a body responsible for a controlled analytical approach to understanding the Word of God. Without it, you could have someone justify executing many acts of violence in the Bible.

In Num 31:15, I think Moses is expressing his frustration with the Israelites not obeying God's command. This is a recurring theme through the Old Testament starting with the Fall of Man and worsening more and more as time goes on.

The reasoning behind 31:16-17 is to prevent the propagation of the Midianites. They are portrayed as a people frustrating God's plan for the Israelites settling in the promised land. The overall idea here is "those who obey God's commands are rewarded; those who do not suffer damnation and death." This is not because God hates the Midianites. Death comes to the disobedient Israelites too from time to time. He allows Israel and Judah to fall because of their disobedience!

I wrestled with Ex 10:20, but the phrasing makes sense if you think of God as the source of all creation. Pharaoh is who he is because God made him. To view in modern context, it is similar to when a father looks at his son receiving a spelling bee award and says "That's my boy." Even if the father did not assist in teaching the boy how to spell, he is still the father's son, a product of he and his wife's creative act. This does not mean God made the Pharaoh make the decisions he made. If the spelling bee example, if the father taught him to correctly spell "cat," but the boy chooses to spell it "kat," the father is not responsible for the son's incorrect decision.

This is an abbreviated explanation and really short changes you without a formal study of the Old Testament.

In reference the sources you are reading, be wary. The lesson from the Fall was the snake introduced doubt to separate us from the truth. "Did God really tell you not to eat from any of the trees in the garden?" is not too different from "Is the Word of God really infallible?" Find the truth from good, reliable sources. Enroll in a Bible study. Try CatholicExchange.com's. I'm currently enrolled in an internet course by the [url="http://www.udallas.edu/ministry/cbs/"]University of Dallas' School of Ministry[/url]. I don't receive academic credits for it, but it also costs a lot less than a semester course.

[dairygirl4u2c]

well, i read that most slaves were to pay a debt. that seems like justice is playing in.

and i was thinking. there's lots of God ordering the death of cities people etc. the people though had done something bad. a boy might have been innocent, but his dad was guilty. so, if you buy into the atonement theology, pure justice requires retribution to the people and the boy, no mercy.
perhaps jesus saves us on a day by day basis as he makes up for any punishments we might should get. it's sort of like God is like that skull character who turns to fire in that new movie.

2 Kings 2:23-24
"Elisha Is Jeered
23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths."
^^^ i actually find this verse humorous....

and for rape, it's tough thatsomene who is raped should have ot marry the raper, but the consequence of sin afects many, and that you marry those you screw seems to be taken to the extreme right. it's not beautiful, but that's sin. i didn't see much other blatantly wrong things, like god ordering the raping of innocent. some could be construed that way, but nothing clearly that way.

this is all pushing it, and i'm don't think the bible is the word of God given all this, only inspired, but i'm being persusaded otherwise.

thopughts?