Sacred Tradition

[N/A Gone]

I have not read anything on this thread, but y'all need to read.


The Meaning of Tradition by Yves Congar.

[reyb]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1372191' date='Aug 28 2007, 12:45 AM']I have not read anything on this thread, but y'all need to read.
The Meaning of Tradition by Yves Congar.[/quote]

[indent]Where can I find it? Is it in the web?[/indent]

[PopeClementI(MorClemis)]

The Catholic Church doesn't separate a "historical Jesus" from the spiritual Jesus - there is only one Jesus and He is both historical and spiritual.

[Socrates]

[quote name='PopeClementI(MorClemis)' post='1427967' date='Dec 1 2007, 11:27 PM']The Catholic Church doesn't separate a "historical Jesus" from the spiritual Jesus - there is only one Jesus and He is both historical and spiritual.[/quote]
Amen!

[reyb]

[indent][quote name='PopeClementI(MorClemis)' post='1427967' date='Dec 1 2007, 11:27 PM']The Catholic Church doesn't separate a "historical Jesus" from the spiritual Jesus - there is only one Jesus and He is both historical and spiritual.[/quote]


[quote name='Socrates' post='1427980' date='Dec 1 2007, 11:51 PM']Amen![/quote]

...not only the Roman Catholic Church believe it but also, protestants even other religiion. This is the reason why I am inviting you to [post="1348983"]Historical Jesus [/post]thread. [/indent]

[indent]Again, may I know what is that 'improvement or development' in Dei Verbum?[/indent]

Edited December 2, 2007 by reyb

[reyb]

Why nobody wants to explain this 'improvement and development' mentioned in Dei Verbum? Nevertheless, let us continue our discussion in this subject --- and learn from it in a honest to goodness discussion.

Edited January 5, 2008 by reyb

[reyb]

[color="#0000FF"]But in order to keep the Gospel forever whole and alive within the Church, the Apostles left bishops as their successors, "handling over" to them "the authority to teach in their own place."[/color]
from Dei Verbum on Handling on Divine Revelation

This is a tradition of the Roman Catholic Church and we are hoping, you will explain it to us in a more precise and clear manner. Who are these Apostles? and Who are these bishops in early days of Roman Catholic Church? What is this Gospel and in what way it was 'handling over' to them? And last but not least, Who are these early church fathers who claim this is the way it should be?
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[mortify]

[quote name='reyb' post='1358608' date='Aug 14 2007, 09:11 AM'][indent]Nevertheless, the question is.... 'Now, if this salvation history is true, where is God’s righteousness? Suppose, you were born before the coming of your Christ, from where you have no new testament, sacred tradition, and the Roman Catholic Church is not yet established. Do you think you have the same opportunity as that of a catholic? Is God unfair to all of us? [/indent][/quote]

Hope you don't mind me throwing in my two cents.

Being a Catholic is like knowing where to go, how to get there, and having all the necessary means to do so, all that is required is that you willfully go. Those outside the Church, and I'm referring to those who never hear the Truth because of geographical location, have a chance of making it to heaven but are at a severe disadvantage. It's easier to get to the heaven as a Catholic but there is also a greater responsibility. It's quite easy to imagine there being many great saints who never heard of the gospel or Church during their earthly existence but received the graces of baptism because they responded to God's grace by following the natural law and living honest lives. On the other hand we can also imagine headless Catholics suffering more than others in hell because they wasted the great means God gave them, one's that would have certainly been envied by those outside of the church.

Ultimately we can rest knowing that God is good and that He will not punish anyone with eternal torment if they do not truly deserve it.

[mortify]

[quote name='reyb' post='1442642' date='Jan 6 2008, 08:01 AM'][color="#0000FF"]But in order to keep the Gospel forever whole and alive within the Church, the Apostles left bishops as their successors, "handling over" to them "the authority to teach in their own place."[/color]
from Dei Verbum on Handling on Divine Revelation

This is a tradition of the Roman Catholic Church and we are hoping, you will explain it to us in a more precise and clear manner. Who are these Apostles? and Who are these bishops in early days of Roman Catholic Church? What is this Gospel and in what way it was 'handling over' to them? And last but not least, Who are these early church fathers who claim this is the way it should be?
-----------[/quote]




(I'm sorry about the earlier post, somehow I had mistaken the quote to be at the end of the thread. )

I don't really understand your difficulty. Sacred tradition is simply the passing on of Christ's teachings through His Apostles to their successors and so on. We don't really know much about the early links because that information has been lost to us, not because it didn't exist. It was certainly well known to those who lived in the early centuries, like St Ireneus who lived in the latter part of the 2nd century and actually learned from disciples of St John (i.e. St Polycarp). He used apostolic succession as a death hammer against the heresy of gnosticism, and he certainly was in touch with more information than any modern scholar ever will be. Now should this be a concern? No, because all that is necessary for salvation is protected by God and available to all those who seek it. Although there are some things that would have great historical value, it was not in God's plan to preserve them.

[reyb]

[quote name='mortify' post='1442923' date='Jan 7 2008, 02:53 AM'](I'm sorry about the earlier post, somehow I had mistaken the quote to be at the end of the thread. )

I don't really understand your difficulty. Sacred tradition is simply the passing on of Christ's teachings through His Apostles to their successors and so on. We don't really know much about the early links because that information has been lost to us, not because it didn't exist. It was certainly well known to those who lived in the early centuries, like St Ireneus who lived in the latter part of the 2nd century and actually learned from disciples of St John (i.e. St Polycarp). He used apostolic succession as a death hammer against the heresy of gnosticism, and he certainly was in touch with more information than any modern scholar ever will be. Now should this be a concern? No, because all that is necessary for salvation is protected by God and available to all those who seek it. Although there are some things that would have great historical value, it was not in God's plan to preserve them.[/quote]

If you think your Sacred Tradition is true and truly from God, how about the Holy Prophets? Do you think they have the same belief and tradition like the Sacred Tradition of the Roman Catholic Church? Please read 'One True Church' thread.

Again, if this tradition is truly from God; Let us all discuss it. If it is really true and in accordance with the Holy Scripture then it will shine. Otherwise, you have to listen and think it over.

Edited January 7, 2008 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='mortify' post='1442923' date='Jan 7 2008, 02:53 AM']Sacred tradition is simply the passing on of Christ's teachings through His Apostles to their successors and so on. We don't really know much about the early links because that information has been lost to us, not because it didn't exist. It was certainly well known to those who lived in the early centuries, like St Ireneus who lived in the latter part of the 2nd century and actually learned from disciples of St John (i.e. St Polycarp). He used apostolic succession as a death hammer against the heresy of gnosticism, and he certainly was in touch with more information than any modern scholar ever will be. Now should this be a concern? No, because all that is necessary for salvation is protected by God and available to all those who seek it. Although there are some things that would have great historical value, it was not in God's plan to preserve them.[/quote]

May I know the writings of St. Ireneus/Polycarp on this 'handling' of divine revelation? (So that we can discuss it.)

[mortify]

[quote name='reyb' post='1442945' date='Jan 7 2008, 09:47 AM']If you think your Sacred Tradition is true and truly from God, how about the Holy Prophets? Do you think they have the same belief and tradition like the Sacred Tradition of the Roman Catholic Church? Please read 'One True Church' thread.[/quote]

How can the Old Testament prophets have the same tradition as what was inspired through the Apostles?

[quote]Again, if this tradition is truly from God; Let us all discuss it. If it is really true and in accordance with the Holy Scripture then it will shine. Otherwise, you have to listen and think it over.[/quote]

[color="#FF0000"]"Stand firm and hold fast to the [b]Traditions[/b] you were taught, whether by an [b]ORAL STATEMENT[/b] or by a letter from us."[/color]
2 Thess 2:15

Tell us reyb, do you hold fast to the Traditions that were passed on orally or do you reject the bible?

[mortify]

[quote name='reyb' post='1442949' date='Jan 7 2008, 10:11 AM']May I know the writings of St. Ireneus/Polycarp on this 'handling' of divine revelation? (So that we can discuss it.)[/quote]

If your *personal* belief contradicts what has been held by Christians since the earliest times you ought take a step back and consider your own position to be in error. It's rather arrogant for you to confidently attack sacred tradition, and even suggest it opposes the bible, when you clearly haven't seriously investigated it.

I will provide you the quote of St Ireneus, and perhaps you will see your self in this quote.
[color="#0000FF"]
"Though none others know we the disposition of our salvation, than those through whom the Gospel came to us, first heralding it, then by the will of God delivering us the Scriptures, which were to be the foundation and pillar of our faith. ...But when the heretics use Scriptures, as if they were wrong and unauthoritative, and we variable, and the truth could not be extracted from them by those who were [b]IGNORANT OF TRADITION[/b]. And when we challenge them in turn with that [b]TRADITION[/b], which is [b]FROM THE APOSTLES[/b], which is guarded by the [b][u]succession of presbyters[/u][/b] in the churches, they oppose themselves to [b]TRADITION[/b], [u][b]saying they are wiser, not only than those presbyters but even than the Apostles![/b][/u] The [b]TRADITION OF THE APOSTLES[/b] manifested, on the contrary, in the whole world, is open in every church to all who seeks the truth ...And since it is a long matter in a work like this to enumerate these successions, we will confute them by pointing to the [b]TRADITION[/b] of the greatest and most ancient and universally-known Church founded and constituted at [b]Rome[/b] by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul, a [b]TRADITION[/b] which she has had and a faith which she proclaims to all men [b]FROM THOSE APOSTLES[/b]." [/color]
(Against the Heresies 3:1-3)

Keep in mind this is written by someone who learned from the disciples of St John the Evangelist. Whose interpretation do you trust more: his or yours?

Edited January 8, 2008 by mortify

[reyb]

[quote name='mortify' post='1443229' date='Jan 8 2008, 02:24 AM']How can the Old Testament prophets have the same tradition as what was inspired through the Apostles?
[color="#FF0000"]"Stand firm and hold fast to the [b]Traditions[/b] you were taught, whether by an [b]ORAL STATEMENT[/b] or by a letter from us."[/color]
2 Thess 2:15

Tell us reyb, do you hold fast to the Traditions that were passed on orally or do you reject the bible?[/quote]


[quote name='mortify' post='1443233' date='Jan 8 2008, 02:32 AM']If your *personal* belief contradicts what has been held by Christians since the earliest times you ought take a step back and consider your own position to be in error. It's rather arrogant for you to confidently attack sacred tradition, and even suggest it opposes the bible, when you clearly haven't seriously investigated it.

I will provide you the quote of St Ireneus, and perhaps you will see your self in this quote.
[color="#0000FF"]
"Though none others know we the disposition of our salvation, than those through whom the Gospel came to us, first heralding it, then by the will of God delivering us the Scriptures, which were to be the foundation and pillar of our faith. ...But when the heretics use Scriptures, as if they were wrong and unauthoritative, and we variable, and the truth could not be extracted from them by those who were [b]IGNORANT OF TRADITION[/b]. And when we challenge them in turn with that [b]TRADITION[/b], which is [b]FROM THE APOSTLES[/b], which is guarded by the [b][u]succession of presbyters[/u][/b] in the churches, they oppose themselves to [b]TRADITION[/b], [u][b]saying they are wiser, not only than those presbyters but even than the Apostles![/b][/u] The [b]TRADITION OF THE APOSTLES[/b] manifested, on the contrary, in the whole world, is open in every church to all who seeks the truth ...And since it is a long matter in a work like this to enumerate these successions, we will confute them by pointing to the [b]TRADITION[/b] of the greatest and most ancient and universally-known Church founded and constituted at [b]Rome[/b] by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul, a [b]TRADITION[/b] which she has had and a faith which she proclaims to all men [b]FROM THOSE APOSTLES[/b]." [/color]
(Against the Heresies 3:1-3)

Keep in mind this is written by someone who learned from the disciples of St John the Evangelist. Whose interpretation do you trust more: his or yours?[/quote]

It is written in 2 Thess 2:13-15

[indent][color="#FF0000"]But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.[/color]
NIV[/indent]
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What are these ‘teachings’ in the above verse that they ‘passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter’? Are these teachings truly referring to the Sacred Tradition of Roman Catholic Church or Is it about whatever Apostle Paul is saying in 2 Thess 2:3-5 regarding the ‘man of lawlessness’ since he said ‘Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?

I am just asking because I want to learn from you and if we are ignorant of this Sacred Tradition just like what your early church father is saying; is it not proper to teach us about it? But please, do not give us a teaching that is not from God because, it is not a good thing. And if you truly believe that this Sacred Tradition is from the Apostles themselves, give us a clear reason – in the light of the scripture.


It is written in 2 Thess 2:1-2
[indent][color="#FF0000"]Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.[/color]NIV[/indent]
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It is a clear sign that there are false teachers, even during the days of Apostle Paul, who are claiming and saying that their teaching - which is about the ‘coming of the Christ’ – is from the Apostles or according to them in their prophecy, reports or letters but, Apostle Paul vehemently denied it. This is the ‘coming of Jesus’, which is he said ‘no gospel at all’ in Galatians 1:7.
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Now, in the above condition of the early Christian believer, how can you be very sure that this historical Jesus, which is the center of all teaching in Sacred Tradition, is truly from the Apostles and not from these false teachers? I am just asking because we need to be sure. Otherwise, a believer may end up believing a lie if we will not learn to ask and seek the truth.

Let us take one example out of this ancient tradition.

Who are these succession of presbyters mentioned by St. Ireneus (who guarded the 'tradition' from the Apostles?)

Edited January 9, 2008 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='mortify' post='1443229' date='Jan 8 2008, 02:24 AM']Tell us reyb, do you hold fast to the Traditions that were passed on orally or do you reject the bible?[/quote]
As I have already said, I do not reject the Holy Scripture as a true written testimony about Jesus Christ, the power and wisdom of God. But regarding this ‘oral’ tradition of the Roman Catholic Church, I want to see by all of us, if this is really what the Apostles are saying and handled down to us or it is just an interpretation and conclusion to the scripture of these believers who were before us.

This issue is not about ‘trust and confidence’ to the early church fathers and other believers of their days or even today but, this is about ‘Truth’. To tell you frankly, I do admire them in their zealousness to God but that is, beside the point because, faith is faith. To a faithful, whatever he earnestly believes, it will always true to himself but, it does not follow that he is truly professing the Truth in accordance with that of the Holy Chosen People of God, the true witnesses.

As it is written in 1 John 4:1

[indent][color="#FF0000"]Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world[/color].[/indent]

Now, will you condemn me if ever I learn to ask in order to see by all of us the Truth? If they are really in line with the Truth of God – this sacred tradition or oral tradition will shine. If not, then the decision remains to the faithful Catholics. I will never say, ‘go out of the Roman Catholic Church’ or ‘go out of any protestant church, if you are a protestant’. But, I will say ‘please come together here in phatmass, (that is, if I will never be banned it this site’). Let us all be together here and let the Lord comes to be our judge.