Sacred Tradition

[reyb]

[indent]Chapter II Dei Verbum

HANDING ON DIVINE REVELATION

7. In His gracious goodness, God has seen to it that what He had revealed for the salvation of all nations would abide perpetually in its full integrity and be handed on to all generations. Therefore Christ the Lord in whom the full revelation of the supreme God is brought to completion [color="#FF0000"]([b]see Cor. 1:20; 3:13; 4:6),[/color] [/b]commissioned the Apostles to preach to all men that Gospel which is the source of all saving truth and moral teaching, (1) and to impart to them heavenly gifts. This Gospel had been promised in former times through the prophets, and Christ Himself had fulfilled it and promulgated it with His lips. This commission was faithfully fulfilled by the Apostles who, by their oral preaching, by example, and by observances handed on what they had received from the lips of Christ, from living with Him, and from what He did, or what they had learned through the prompting of the Holy Spirit. The commission was fulfilled, too, by those Apostles and apostolic men who under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit committed the message of salvation to writing. (2)
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I think there is some typo error in here. Is it referring to 1 Corinthian or 2 Corinthian? (see Dei Verbum in [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html)"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_council...verbum_en.html)[/url][/indent]

Edited August 1, 2007 by reyb

[Paddington]

ReyB,

I admire the work you're putting into this.

[reyb]

[indent]Dei Verbum speaks of Salvation History as if God prepared everything for Catholics and only for Roman Catholic Church.

According to Dei Verbum, since the beginning of the fall of man, God promised, prepared and planned to reveal himself and to ‘make known the way of heavenly salvation’. ‘In carefully planning and preparing the salvation of the whole human race’, God chose for Himself a people to whom He would entrust His promises’ –to Abraham, Moses and the Prophets.

‘The principal purpose to which the plan of the old covenant was directed was to prepare for the coming of Christ, the redeemer of all and of the messianic kingdom’. And so is it, Jesus Christ come in this world more or less 2000 years ago and his Church was established after he did what he needs to be done for the salvation of man and that church, which is the kingdom of God on earth, is the Roman Catholic Church. ‘This mystery had not been manifested to other generations as it was now revealed to His holy Apostles and prophets in the Holy Spirit , so that they might preach the Gospel, stir up faith in Jesus, Christ and Lord, and gather together the Church. Now the writings of the New Testament stand as a perpetual and divine witness to these realities’.

Obviously, God heavily favored the Roman Catholic Church, with all the secrets, mysteries, and knowledge for a man to be saved thru Jesus Christ.

Now, if this salvation history is true, where is God’s righteousness? Suppose, you were born before the coming of your Christ, from where you have no new testament, sacred tradition, and the Roman Catholic Church is not yet established. Do you think you have the same opportunity as that of a catholic? Is God unfair to all of us? [/indent]

Edited August 14, 2007 by reyb

[kafka]

[quote name='reyb' post='1358397' date='Aug 13 2007, 08:15 PM'][indent]Dei Verbum speaks of Salvation History as if God prepared everything for Catholics and only for Roman Catholic Church.

According to Dei Verbum, since the beginning of the fall of man, God promised, prepared and planned to reveal himself and to ‘make known the way of heavenly salvation’. ‘In carefully planning and preparing the salvation of the whole human race’, God chose for Himself a people to whom He would entrust His promises’ –to Abraham, Moses and the Prophets.

‘The principal purpose to which the plan of the old covenant was directed was to prepare for the coming of Christ, the redeemer of all and of the messianic kingdom’. And so is it, Jesus Christ come in this world more or less 2000 years ago and his Church was established after he did what he needs to be done for the salvation of man and that church, which is the kingdom of God on earth, is the Roman Catholic Church. ‘This mystery had not been manifested to other generations as it was now revealed to His holy Apostles and prophets in the Holy Spirit , so that they might preach the Gospel, stir up faith in Jesus, Christ and Lord, and gather together the Church. Now the writings of the New Testament stand as a perpetual and divine witness to these realities’.

Obviously, God heavily favored the Roman Catholic Church, with all the secrets, mysteries, and knowledge for a man to be saved thru Jesus Christ.

Now, if this salvation history is true, where is God’s righteousness? Suppose, you were born before the coming of your Christ, from where you have no new testament, sacred tradition, and the Roman Catholic Church is not yet established. Do you think you have the same opportunity as that of a catholic? Is God unfair to all of us? [/indent][/quote]

I will answer this for you tommorrow

[thessalonian]

reyb,

Luke 8
First of all it is clear that God has given some to know the truth in it's fullness:
And when his disciples asked him what this parable meant,


[10] he said, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God; but for others they are in parables, so that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.


I think your looking at it from the wrong direction. We as Catholics are more accountable and judged by a higher standard for the great truth we have been given.

41] Peter said, "Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?"
[42] And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise steward, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time?
[43] Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes will find so doing.
[44] Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
[45] But if that servant says to himself, `My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
[46] the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the unfaithful.
[47] And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating.
[48] But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to [b]whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more. [/b][49]

Catholicism is a responsibility, not a privledge.

[reyb]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1358406' date='Aug 13 2007, 08:30 PM']reyb,


Catholicism is a responsibility, not a privledge.[/quote]
[indent]We are not yet talking about obligation or responsibility of a chosen man but God’s righteousness. As it is written in Matt 6:33-34
[indent][color="#FF0000"]33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well[/color][/indent]. [/indent]

[thessalonian]

[quote name='reyb' post='1358433' date='Aug 13 2007, 09:14 PM'][indent]We are not yet talking about obligation or responsibility of a chosen man but God’s righteousness. As it is written in Matt 6:33-34
[indent][color="#FF0000"]33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well[/color][/indent]. [/indent][/quote]

One cannot separate the two. Even the seeking cannot be separated for all is by God's grace. Salvatoin seen on a continum rather than just at an instant brings the right view. All of it is bringing God's grace in to the world. Not just for the saved but the unsaved who reject it as well. Some because they don't have the grace and therefore may not be culpable and some due to the outright rejection of grace which is not irresistable. Perhaps the only real heresy of the 5 points.

[reyb]

[indent]Thessalonian, Thank you.[/indent]

[indent]Nevertheless, the question is.... 'Now, if this salvation history is true, where is God’s righteousness? Suppose, you were born before the coming of your Christ, from where you have no new testament, sacred tradition, and the Roman Catholic Church is not yet established. Do you think you have the same opportunity as that of a catholic? Is God unfair to all of us? [/indent]

[indent]We must remember Rom 10:9
[indent]9 [color="#FF0000"]That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord ," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved[/color].[/indent][/indent]

[indent]But how about God's believer in the past?[/indent]

[thessalonian]

[quote name='reyb' post='1358608' date='Aug 14 2007, 09:11 AM'][indent]Thessalonian, Thank you.[/indent]

[indent]Nevertheless, the question is.... 'Now, if this salvation history is true, where is God’s righteousness? Suppose, you were born before the coming of your Christ, from where you have no new testament, sacred tradition, and the Roman Catholic Church is not yet established. Do you think you have the same opportunity as that of a catholic? Is God unfair to all of us? [/indent]

[indent]We must remember Rom 10:9
[indent]9 [color="#FF0000"]That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord ," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved[/color].[/indent][/indent]

[indent]But how about God's believer in the past?[/indent][/quote]

Again I go back to Luke 12. I also raise the cases of Cornelius, the Good Samaritan, and the three wise men, none of whom were Christians or Jews. Yet each was held as a standard of righteousness. Each could be considered to be "saved". Cornelius was said to be a "righteous and God-fearing man". I don't know that the righteous and God fearing can be considered among the damned. Doesn't seem likely. God's hearts are implanted on all men's hearts and so all men have saving truth. They may not have the fullness of the truth but they are only accountable for what they have been given (Luke 12) and God gives to all "God desires that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth". The sun shines on the good and the bad. All creation cries out to his glory. This is for all men to see. Men do not have to know all if all has not been given to them to know. They have to do what they are required with what has been given. Thus one man had 5 talents and produced 5 more (which he would not have produced had he not been given). One man 2 and 2 more. The one with one was still given and if he had only made interest would have done well.

Edited August 14, 2007 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

By the way when reading scripture it is good to read it as something given to one (you, me) who is to know and then respond. Leaving the judgement of those to whom it has not yet been given (i.e. they haven't read and understood yet) to God, i.e. Cornelius, good samaritan, wise men had not read the OT.). It tells the reader what he must do. Not how to judge others. John 6 always bothered me in this reagard for a long time. It says "unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood you shall not have life within you". But you have to realize there are four groups with regard to this passage that must be evaluated. The Jews who outright rejected all of Christ and therefore this teaching. The Disciples who were going along with it until things got to hard for them to trust (john 6:66) and of course those who believed. But there is one other group. Those who were not there and did not hear and therefore there acountability cannot be judged by the words of the passage. We leave them to God to judge.

Edited August 14, 2007 by thessalonian

[Starets]

So, how is a bear of little brain like me to know what is Sacred Tradition and what is just "tradition"?

[reyb]

[quote name='kafka' post='1358405' date='Aug 13 2007, 08:29 PM']I will answer this for you tommorrow[/quote]

[indent]okay.[/indent]

[quote name='Staretz' post='1358655' date='Aug 14 2007, 10:58 AM']So, how is a bear of little brain like me to know what is Sacred Tradition and what is just "tradition"?[/quote]

[indent]We are already discussing the Sacred Tradition of the Roman Catholic Church. [post="1358397"]Dei Verbum [/post]is one. About ‘tradition’ are you referring to 2 Thess 2:15?[/indent]

[Paddington]

[quote name='Staretz' post='1358655' date='Aug 14 2007, 01:28 PM']So, how is a bear of little brain like me[/quote]

You're a bear? Nice.

[reyb]

[indent]Obviously, the promised messiah according to Dei Verbum is the historical Jesus. But, whether the Apostles and prophets are referring to this historical Jesus or not is something to be verified in the course of our discussion and in ‘[post="1348983"]Historical Je[/post]sus’ thread, nonetheless let us continue.[/indent]

[indent]taken from Dei Verbum Chapter 11- Handling on Divine Revelation.[/indent]
[indent]But in order to keep the Gospel forever whole and alive within the Church, the Apostles left bishops as their successors, "handing over" to them "the authority to teach in their own place."(3) This sacred tradition, therefore, and Sacred Scripture of both the Old and New Testaments are like a mirror in which the pilgrim Church on earth looks at God, from whom she has received everything, until she is brought finally to see Him as He is, face to face (see 1 John 3:2).

8. And so the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved by an unending succession of preachers until the end of time. Therefore the Apostles, handing on what they themselves had received, warn the faithful to hold fast to the traditions which they have learned either by word of mouth or by letter (see 2 Thess. 2:15), and to fight in defense of the faith handed on once and for all (see Jude 1:3) (4) Now what was handed on by the Apostles includes everything which contributes toward the holiness of life and increase in faith of the peoples of God; and so the Church, in her teaching, life and worship, perpetuates and hands on to all generations all that she herself is, all that she believes.

[color="#0000FF"]This tradition which comes from the Apostles develop in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. (5) For there is a growth in the understanding of the realities and the words which have been handed down.[/color] This happens through the contemplation and study made by believers, who treasure these things in their hearts (see Luke, 2:19, 51) through a penetrating understanding of the spiritual realities which they experience, and through the preaching of those who have received through Episcopal succession the sure gift of truth. For as the centuries succeed one another, the Church constantly moves forward toward the fullness of divine truth until the words of God reach their complete fulfillment in her. (see Dei Verbum in [url="http://www.vatican.va)"]http://www.vatican.va)[/url][/indent]

[indent]May I know what is the meaning of ‘This tradition which comes from the Apostles develop in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. For there is a growth in the understanding of the realities and the words which have been handed down’.?[/indent]

[reyb]

[indent]5 . Second Council of Orange, Canon 7, First Vatican Concil.
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Councils_of_Orange"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Councils_of_Orange[/url]
[url="http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/canons_of_orange.html"]http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.ht..._of_orange.html[/url][/indent]