Praying To Mary...

[Dave]

Note*** I'm a big phatmass supporter and I got nothin but love for my Catholic brothers and sisters.....***

But does the word not say "There is one mediator between God and man...Jesus Christ. " ?

If Jesus is the only mediator, then why pray to Mary? I notice that she's not mentioned as one that we should pray to. I don't pray to angels, I don't pray to Peter or Paul, so why do Catholics pray to Mary?

Number one, yes, the Bible says that, but think about this . . .

When we pray for others, are we not acting as a type of mediator? That's what Our Lady does -- pray for us and with us. Yes, Jesus is the one Mediator, but the type of mediation that Our Lady, the other saints, and we do is merely a secondary mediatorship that is ENTIRELY DEPENDENT on Jesus being the one Mediator.

You can ask any saint or angel in heaven for prayers -- those in heaven are alive in Christ! It may not specifically say one may ask their prayers, but where in the Bible does it say that everything a Christian believes must be spelled out for them in it? It doesn't say that.

More about praying to saints later . . .

My other question mark is the "Holy Mary, mother of God". God is, was and always has been God.....hence, no mother. I understand Mary as the mother of the earthly Jesus, but the mother of God? Why not say "Mary mother of Jesus"

Jesus isn't just a man; He's God too -- the second person of the Holy Trinity. Mary gave birth to Him; therefore, she's the Mother of God. A mother does not merely carry the human nature of her child in her womb. Rather, she carries the person of her child. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God.

I also have a hard time calling anyone "holy". Romans 3:23. ALL have sinned with the exception of Jesus. I don't believe anyone anywhere is holy.

Mary never sinned. More about that in a moment . . . .

[Dave]

How can the Catholic Church say that Mary never sinned, when Paul says that “all have sinned”? Well, it’s simple, really: In the Bible, “all” doesn’t always mean “all individuals.” Sometimes it means “some of all types.” For example, when Jesus said, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself” (John 12:32, NAS), He did not mean that He would draw each and every man, woman, and child to Himself. He meant that He would draw some people “from every tribe and language and people and nation” (Rev. 5:9). In other words, it wasn’t just the Jews that would benefit, it was all people, all nations.

This is the sense in which Paul meant Romans 3:23. Paul spends the first two chapters of Romans demonstrating that the Jews and Gentiles are both equally guilty before God. In Romans 3:9, he writes, “We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.” Then he writes, “There is no difference [between Jews and Gentiles], for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:22-23). That is, all nations are under sin, the Jews included.

On an individual level, however, there can be exceptions without violating the meaning of this verse. Obviously, Jesus Himself is an exception. He did not sin. Neither do young children, who, because of their immaturity, are incapable of making moral choices, and thus, are incapable of committing actual sins. Therefore, Mary could also be an exception, if God chose to make her one. Of course, “could be” is a long way from “is,” but I’m only trying to demonstrate here that the doctrine of Mary’s sinlessness does not contradict the meaning of Romans 3:23 (that both Jews and Gentiles as a group, are sinners). Statements like “all have sinned,” while generally true, are not to be understood to mean that there can be no exceptions. For example, we know that as a general rule, “the wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23), but we also know that both Enoch (Gen. 5:24) and Elijah (2 Kings 2:11), though they were sinners, never died.

Now, it’s certainly true that in the normal course of things, every baby is conceived in a state of Original Sin. Had God not intervened, this would also have been true of Mary. Likewise, it is also true that every person who lives long enough to be capable of moral decision-making will commit actual sins. Again, had God not intervened, this would also have been true of Mary. But the Catholic Church points out that there was nothing normal about the job Mary was given to do. Her role was different – and more important – than any other person’s in human history: to bear, give birth to, feed, clothe, protect, raise, and train the Son of God.

Catholics simply believe that God gave Mary gifts that were appropriate to her role as Jesus’s mother. It was not intrinsically necessary that she be preserved from sin, but it made her a more fitting vessel to bear the Son of God. And by the way, her preservation from sin was a gift, based solely on the merits of her Son. She, being human, was as much in need of a savior as the rest of us. But her role in salvation history was more difficult and more important than any other person’s. (Who among us would dare to say that his own role in history was more important than bearing and raising the Son of God?) Therefore, by God’s grace, she was saved more perfectly, and more comprehensively, than the rest of us. In essence, we are pulled out of the pit of sin; she was prevented from falling into it in the first place. So it is entirely appropriate for Mary to call God her savior, for He saved her in a most spectacular way.

If we look back in history, we find that Christians have known about Mary’s sinless condition from the very beginning. There are hints of it as far back as the second century, when it was common to compare her to Eve, who was also undefiled. It is explicitly taught somewhat later:

You alone and your mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon your mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?1

Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sara but from Mary, a virgin not only undefiled but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.2

Having excepted the holy virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins – for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear him in whom there was no sin? – so, I say, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do we suppose would have been their answer?3

It’s actually rather ironic that modern Protestants object to the Immaculate Conception and subsequent sinlessness of Mary, because, like the early Christians, Martin Luther, the founder of Protestantism, was a firm believer in it. He wrote,

It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin.4

Edited February 10, 2004 by Dave

[Dave]

Praying to the Saints

The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ—the saints—for their intercession has come under attack in the last few hundred years. Though the practice dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans—meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth—it still comes under heavy attack from many within the Protestant movement that started in the sixteenth century.

Can They Hear Us?

One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

One Mediator

Another charge commonly levelled against asking the saints for their intercession is that this violates the sole mediatorship of Christ, which Paul discusses: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).

But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a meditor. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesites) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).

The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.

"No Contact with the dead"

Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. "There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed" (Deut. 18:10–15).

God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now." The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.

Overlooking the Obvious

Some objections to the concept of prayer to the saints betray restricted notions of heaven. One comes from anti-Catholic Loraine Boettner:

"How, then, can a human being such as Mary hear the prayers of millions of Roman Catholics, in many different countries, praying in many different languages, all at the same time?

"Let any priest or layman try to converse with only three people at the same time and see how impossible that is for a human being. . . . The objections against prayers to Mary apply equally against prayers to the saints. For they too are only creatures, infinitely less than God, able to be at only one place at a time and to do only one thing at a time.

"How, then, can they listen to and answer thousands upon thousands of petitions made simultaneously in many different lands and in many different languages? Many such petitions are expressed, not orally, but only mentally, silently. How can Mary and the saints, without being like God, be present everywhere and know the secrets of all hearts?" (Roman Catholicism, 142-143).

If being in heaven were like being in the next room, then of course these objections would be valid. A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe. But the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life.

Further, the Bible indicates that the glorified human intellect enjoyed by the saints in heaven has a phenomenal ability to process information, dwarfing anything we are capable of in this life. This is shown by the fact that, on Judgment Day, we will review every act of our lives. But since Judgment Day is not going to take eighty years to review the events of an eighty year life (if it takes any time at all), our intellects will be able to process enormous amounts of information and experience once freed from the confines of this mortal life. And not only will we be aware of the events of our own lives, but of the lives of those around us on Judgment Day as well, for Christ stated that all our acts will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2–3).

This does not imply that the saints in heaven therefore must be omniscient, as God is, for it is only through God’s willing it that they can communicate with others in heaven or with us. And Boettner’s argument about petitions arriving in different languages is even further off the mark. Does anyone really think that in heaven the saints are restricted to the King’s English? After all, it is God himself who gives the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues. Surely those saints in Revelation understand the prayers they are shown to be offering to God.

The problem here is one of what might be called a primitive or even childish view of heaven. It is certainly not one on which enough intellectual rigor has been exercised. A good introduction to the real implications of the afterlife may be found in Frank Sheed’s book Theology and Sanity, which argues that sanity depends on an accurate appreciation of reality, and that includes an accurate appreciation of what heaven is really like. And once that is known, the place of prayer to the saints follows.

"Directly to Jesus"

Some may grant that the previous objections to asking the saints for their intercession do not work and may even grant that the practice is permissible in theory, yet they may question it on other grounds, asking why one would want to ask the saints to pray for one. "Why not pray directly to Jesus?" they ask.

The answer is: "Of course one should pray directly to Jesus!" But that does not mean it is not also a good thing to ask others to pray for one as well. Ultimately, the "go-directly-to-Jesus" objection boomerangs back on the one who makes it: Why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly? If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us.

Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).

Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.

Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit" (Jas. 5:16–18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.

Having others praying for us thus is a good thing, not something to be despised or set aside. Of course, we should pray directly to Christ with every pressing need we have (cf. John 14:13–14). That’s something the Catholic Church strongly encourages. In fact, the prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.

In addition to our prayers directly to God and Jesus (which are absolutely essential to the Christian life), there are abundant reasons to ask our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us. The Bible indicates that they are aware of our prayers, that they intercede for us, and that their prayers are effective (else they would not be offered). It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we should refrain from asking our fellow Christians in heaven to do what we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing.

In Heaven and On Earth

The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Note*** I'm a big phatmass supporter and I got nothin but love for my Catholic brothers and sisters.....***

But does the word not say "There is one mediator between God and man...Jesus Christ. " ?

If Jesus is the only mediator, then why pray to Mary? I notice that she's not mentioned as one that we should pray to. I don't pray to angels, I don't pray to Peter or Paul, so why do Catholics pray to Mary?

My other question mark is the "Holy Mary, mother of God". God is, was and always has been God.....hence, no mother. I understand Mary as the mother of the earthly Jesus, but the mother of God? Why not say "Mary mother of Jesus"

I also have a hard time calling anyone "holy". Romans 3:23. ALL have sinned with the exception of Jesus. I don't believe anyone anywhere is holy.

Those are three things that as a Protestant, I've never understood.

Blessings

Fab

Thank you for your questions! I like them.

I am tempted to reply to your post but I'm afraid of becoming addicted to writing since I love the topic so much. And I think you would get a lot out of the reference section. phatcatholic has been working hard getting it all organized and everything.

"But does the word not say "There is one mediator between God and man...Jesus Christ. " ?"

Yes indeed it does, and this is what the Church teaches. But the difference is that part of the essence of protestantism is the principle of "sola Christus" whereas in Catholicism (and the Word) is the principle of "subordinate mediation". Protestants accept subordinate mediation in practice but deny it in doctrine. I will illustrate this with a funny story. A friend of mine (Catholic) was sitting in the waiting room at the doctor's office and was approached by a protestant evangelist. This person noticed the Marian medal my friend was wearing. The protestant turned to my friend and said, "you know you don't need a mediator to get to Jesus". My friend replied, "well then I guess I don't need you."

Christ's plan of salvation involves incorporating us into His body and calling us to share in His mission and to be as it were mediators of His Gospel and saving Grace. By our prayers we unite with Christ's holy and pure intercession before the Father. Christ is the High Priest, but we are all priests in a subordinate sense as scripture teaches. This is a subordinate mediation by which we "offer spiritual sacrifices" in union with the Once and For All Sacrifice of Calvary which is the source of all grace. Angels mediate, preachers mediate, we mediate by praying, we mediate by doing good works in the Spirit, etc., etc.. But this does not take away from Christ's Mediation because He is the head of this Body. He is also the source. Our mediation is subordinate and participatory, meaning that Christ's Mediation is everything, we have nothing without it. The Bible does not exclude this reality but affirms it through and through. Protestants read into the meaning of that text and conclude a principle which is foreign to the literal sense of the text. Namely that Christ's sole Mediatorship excludes the possibility of subordinate mediation. This is not a wholly Biblical understanding but is based on the dynamics of protestantism as a reaction against mediation in various forms (ultimately leading to the deification of the individual instead of the unity of the Body).

Shucks, I need to go. Seriously, the reference section is dope!

Peace

Edited February 10, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum

[Jake Huether]

Christ indeed is the one mediator between God and man.

But then, you must ask yourself this:

When Mary "mediates" who is she the mediator between?

Mary certainly isn't the mediator between God and man, because that role is for Christ. Mary is human (man).

Therefore, when Mary mediates for us, it is between us and Christ! And since Mary is "man", then Christ still is mediating between "man" and God.

Check out the reference section. It is rich.

[phatcatholic]

if i could provide my two cents....

first off, in case ur wondering, the reference section is in the catholic apologetics board here at phatmass, and includes the topics pinned at the top of the board.

that said, i would like to say something about the "one mediator" that has not been said yet. it is often posed that praying to saints takes away from Christ's role as the "one mediator." but, i say it affirms it! afterall, consider that if it were not for Christ and his mediatorship, those saints who we ask for intercession would not even be in heaven! those saints would not be members of the body of Christ in such a perfect way were it not for Jesus.

therefore, when we pray to saints in heaven we are at the same time acknowledging and affirming that Christ is the "one mediator" and it is b/c of him and thru him that we do all things.

pax christi,

phatcatholic