Praying To Mary...

[ironmonk]

Here is my take.

Praying with Mary, I realize you do not worship her, is fine, as long doing such is simply out of reverance. I think where most of the reasonable protestants disagree is where people starting asking her for help. Now God is good and I would imagine that an increase of faith through Mary would be sufficient for an intercession. But there really is no need for it when you have Jesus Christ.

Now I realize the Bible says to ask each other for prayers and such. But if I were God, which I am not, I would want the people to implore to me by faith, which praying to Mary accomplishes albeit not through Jesus. So I would imagine it is the increased faith of the individual that actually accomplishes the good prayer since Mary is in Heaven and does not need faith.. then maybe she does and we'll never know God completely save for special rapturous visions to take in as much as we could ever handle.. so I may be wrong.

Also I would say that reverencing Mary is good for a reward at the least, so that may be a cause the reward and not the intercession itself perhaps.

Again let me stress that God is good and there is nothing specifically wrong with utilizing Mary. But I also want to stress that there can and is as the Pope himself has noted sometimes reverence taken too far. Because while there is nothing wrong with an increased faith, and yes I realize we can pray to both Mary and Jesus, but where do we draw the line with Mary?

I just wanted to point all those points out. There really is nothing to debate here the way I see it as long as someone does this in an appropriate and healthy manner. Plus I think typing this made me realize that I bet Mary does indeed have faith, even in Heaven, but still, that's just me. I still would wonder where we would draw the line though, even for asking others? My underlying question is where do we draw the line using the krutch of other's? Maybe never? hmm..

Maybe you should study instead of guessing.

Fatima, Medjugorje, etc...

http://www.catholic-pages.com/dir/bvm.asp

-ironmonk

[ironmonk]

If you define "prayer" as prots do, then yes it would be very wrong to pray to Mary. If you define it as Catholics do, then it isn't necessarily wrong. none-the-less, the communion of the saints is something that you end up having to decide if your going to have faith in the teaching or not.

And the Hail Mary prayer - flattery!

The Hail Mary prayer is from Luke 1.

The Angels of God Hailed Mary... we are not holier than the Angels that are in Heaven, so we should learn something from them.

Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[dairygirl4u2c]

the Hail Mary

This is a beautiful prayer. The fact that it mostly comes from the Bible makes it moreso.

I still would wonder about the "pray for us sinners" part. Cuz I still don't know where to draw the line with that asking other's to pray for other's business.

That's like asking where do I draw the line loving my future husbands mother?

The loving part I have no question of. Also praying for other's I have no question of. It's the how much to ask other's to pray when I could be praying myself part that I'm not sure about. It makes me think it's the love and respect and faith of the individual constantly imploring that is what really gets the reward, and not necessarily the intercession.

And yes intercession happens, my question is how much do we implore? How much do we implore to Mary when we could be imploring to Jesus? Again the loving I have no question of the limit. (I don't want to start going in circles here)

Also I do know very much about Catholocism, I have studied Catholic apologetics for around four years too. So keep in mind all these questions and observations come from someone who knows what typical websites have, but still did not answer.

Also my earlier observation about relaying what is said instead of blanketly referring someone to somewhere else I need to reiterate because if you know something, you should be able to relay it in plain, simple words. But thanks for the point Ironmonk, I will keep in mind that when searching for an answer on the internet and such, it is best to read things with the question in mind.

Edited February 7, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[jmjtina]

still would wonder about the "pray for us sinners" part. Cuz I still don't know where to draw the line with that asking other's to pray for other's business

funny how so many of us who say this are quick to ask a friend or a pastor to "Pray for them".

It's the how much to ask other's to pray when I could be praying myself part that I'm not sure about. It makes me think it's the love and respect and faith of the individual constantly imploring that is what really gets the reward, and not necessarily the intercession.

I don't know what you mean here. What do you mean by reward....not necessarily the intercession? If you want something special only your dad can give do you ask twice (or more) to yourself if your asking your mom too much? I'm confused with your logic.

And yes intercession happens, my question is how much do we implore? How much do we implore to Mary when we could be imploring to Jesus? Again the loving I have no question of the limit.

You don't have to go to Mary. And the fact that your probably not Catholic, can make it harder for you to understand the devotion Catholics seem to have for Our Heavenly Mother.

Also I do know very much about Catholocism, I have studied Catholic apologetics for around four years too. So keep in mind all these questions and observations come from someone who knows what typical websites have, but still did not answer.

I study my faith as well, was born Catholic, am Catholic and will die Catholic. I don't claim to have all knowledge, and surely don't claim to understand it all. All I know is I love my Mother Church, the Mother of God and Jesus and the Saints. It's not about "give my love only to God" but "since God is love, and He is infinite, he has given me a new family to love." The souls in purgatory, the saints, Pope John Paull II and yes, His Own Mother.

God Bless.

[phatcatholic]

This is a beautiful prayer. The fact that it mostly comes from the Bible makes it moreso.

I still would wonder about the "pray for us sinners" part. Cuz I still don't know where to draw the line with that asking other's to pray for other's business.

The loving part I have no question of. Also praying for other's I have no question of. It's the how much to ask other's to pray when I could be praying myself part that I'm not sure about. It makes me think it's the love and respect and faith of the individual constantly imploring that is what really gets the reward, and not necessarily the intercession.

And yes intercession happens, my question is how much do we implore? How much do we implore to Mary when we could be imploring to Jesus? Again the loving I have no question of the limit. (I don't want to start going in circles here)

Also I do know very much about Catholocism, I have studied Catholic apologetics for around four years too. So keep in mind all these questions and observations come from someone who knows what typical websites have, but still did not answer.

Also my earlier observation about relaying what is said instead of blanketly referring someone to somewhere else I need to reiterate because if you know something, you should be able to relay it in plain, simple words. But thanks for the point Ironmonk, I will keep in mind that when searching for an answer on the internet and such, it is best to read things with the question in mind.

if "praying for others [you] have no question of" then why do u worry about "where to draw the line" in the Hail Mary prayer?

also, as to weighing how much we ask others to pray for us with how much we pray for ourselves to God, i suggest reading 1 Corinthians Chapter 12. in it i feel is an apt defense for asking saints to pray for us. afterall, they are too a part of the body of Christ. so often, non-catholics say, "why pray to saints when i can pray to Christ. we don't need to ask saints to pray for us." yet, we find in verses 20-23:

20

But as it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

21

The eye cannot say to the hand, "I do not need you," nor again the head to the feet, "I do not need you."

22

Indeed, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are all the more necessary,

23

and those parts of the body that we consider less honorable we surround with greater honor, and our less presentable parts are treated with greater propriety....

many non-catholics seem to see saints, and especially Mary, as these weaker members of the body, if they acknowledge them as members at all. but, i say that they are just as much a part of the body as we are, and even moreso considering that it is only those in heaven who can partake of the beatific vision. they are closer to Christ now then we can ever be here on Earth!

i also say that these saints are the often mentioned "cloud of witnesses" and they care for us. afterall,

24

....God has so constructed the body as to give greater honor to a part that is without it,

25

so that there may be no division in the body, but that the parts may have the same concern for one another.

26

If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy.

i provide all of this to say to you that we are designed to care for each other as members of the body. and saints are members of the body only b/c they are in Christ and they have been saved by him. therefore, praying to saints to intercede for us does not take away from Christ. instead, it affirms the work that he has done for us. therefore, i see no point in weighing the time we spend praying to God w/ the time we spend asking our fellow members of the body for intercession.

both actions give praise and glory to God

pax christi,

phatcatholic

[dairygirl4u2c]

funny how so many of us who say this are quick to ask a friend or a pastor to "Pray for them".

I really don't mind utilizing Mary, but you don't constantly beseech a pastor to pray for you. Someone could figure that they should constantly pray with Mary to Jesus. Should this be kosher? (I am undecied)

But then why utilize any other saint or person when you have Mary? Moreso, would it be arguable to pray with Joseph since he's got it in with Mary whose got it in with Jesus?

Or if it helps should pray with all the saints in heaven and on earth over just Mary? Then why would we ever pray with Mary alone?

You see where I am going here? It still makes me think that the person who's praying whose faith has increased because of the beauty of reverence to Mary and her magnification of Jesus is the reason for the favor.

Plus it seems unjust that God would allow a favor to someone who prays with Mary to Jesus to someone who prays to Jesus by himself and didn't know of this secret weopon of Mary. What should we think about this justice of prayers to God?

I realize that this could be said about utilizing others who are alive to pray for you.

So it makes me think that the praying for other's is more of an earthly thing where the people have faith for sure should pray, but then like I said, I suppose Mary could have faith so I'm not sure what to think.

Perhaps we should always pray with the all the saints on heaven and earth and think of Mary's beauty since her role is special all the while. And do this all the time when we pray even.

But would you as Catholics be upset if a protestant said their prayers were better because they did this while you prayed with just Mary? Do you understand why protestants get upset now? Would you be upset if they did this?

I am not looking for you to defend yourselves. I am undecided on a lot of this. There is a whole metaphysical world out there that even the Catholic Church hasn't touched. I don't claim to know the answers either. And I assume that you all don't have all the answers to my questions so am simply trying to have an open discussion or find the answers if you do know.

Edited February 8, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[cmotherofpirl]

Half the time Dairy I don't understand what your question is. THat makes it difficult to reply to you. :(

[dairygirl4u2c]

Sorry cmother. I do tend to ramble.

Also I was in the middle of editing my post when you read it. I edit a lot!

I put questions on the end of my thoughts, hope it helps! ^_^

[Aloysius]

don't think of it like that. it's not this secret weapon, as if it were impossible to receive a favor talking specifically to Jesus. it's just an amazing gift to us. Mary is a gift. she helps us along with our prayer life and prays for us whenever we implore her. The more we get to know her, the more we get to know Jesus, the more confortable we are with Jesus. To Jesus through Mary. Jesus is infinitely knowable and Mary knows Him infinitely (as do all the saints in heaven, but none in such a special motherly knowledge) therefore, when Jesus gave her to us to be our mother, He gave us a gift that helps us know Him better.

we follow the fulfillment of the prophesy knowing that we live under the new davidic kingdom, with Jesus as our King, Mary as our Queen Mother who intercedes on behalf of the people (The way the mother of the king worked in the original Davidic kingdom ) the Pope as the earthy steward of the people <as per the prophesy that the Davidic Kingdom shall never be without an earthly steward>, the Hierarchy as the ministers holding the keys <the way the old Davidic Kingdom worked>, the saints and angels as the King's friends, and army.

EDIT: also, we don't say well our prayers are better cuz we pray with Mary. well, in a sense, we see that we become more comfortable with Christ and know Him more personally by praying with His mom, not to say protestants don't become comfortable with Him and know Him personally, it's just a different side of knowing Him personally which is the beatiful way He gave us to know Him personally, while protestants go the other direction that isn't impossible just not as beautiful in my opinion and not as much of a fulfillment of God's salvitic plan throughout the ages.

Edited February 8, 2004 by Aloysius

[Adam]

True, but a Catholic should never have to feel pressured that he/she must have devotions to Mary to be Catholic. It is hard for convert Catholics to start that relationship with Mary that many cradle Catholics have developed in there young life's.

As for I, I hold no devotion to Mary. I still feel uncomfortable praying the Rosary and I am thankful Marian devotion isn't something required of me. The beauty is I have my whole life to build this relationship, as many other converts like myself. Often other Catholics critisize us and make us feel like we don't belong in the Church because we don't hold a Marian devotion. Believe it or not, some Catholics are very devoted to Christ but do not participate in Marian devotions. I accept Marian dogma, as any Catholic should, but I also feel that I am not ready to have Mary intercede my prayers and that is very ok and fine.

I encourage Catholic converts to find what type of devotional prayer helps them most with there relationship with Christ. Whether through Mary or the Saints or praying to Jesus alone. I always ask St. Michael to protect me.

[hyperdulia again]

I don't think anyone has ever clasped their hands and called on God since the Assumption, without the Queen of Heaven pleading for them. Whether or not we ask her intercession, she intercedes just the same.

[Dave]

I don't think anyone has ever clasped their hands and called on God since the Assumption, without the Queen of Heaven pleading for them. Whether or not we ask her intercession, she intercedes just the same.

You are absolutely correct. Mary always intercedes for us whether or not we know it or ask for it.

[Jake Huether]

which praying to Mary accomplishes albeit not through Jesus.

Why not??

Our understading of "prayer" may be limited. But Mary perfectly knows what "pray" means.

The dumbest most ignorant Catholic who has learned by his parents, who learned by their parents, only to pray TO Mary, still has recourse to God through Jesus, because Mary knows exactly what to do with the prayers.

Mary is in heaven, she is the Mother of the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, the Mother of God Himself. She keeps nothing, yet refuses nothing. She is the epitamy of HUMAN (yes, we know she is human) perfection, not because of anything that she did on her own. Rather, Mary is perfect, because of her willingness to give herself completely to the Will of her Divine Son, before He was even Born!

If Mary recieves "worship" she humbly passes it to her Son, who accepts it on behalf of the ignorant Catholic. If Mary is asked to heal someone, she humbly implores her Son to do His Divine Will.

You can NOT go wrong with asking the Blessed Virgin, Our Mother, anything. She knows what to do with it. Even if we do not.

Mary, ever Virgin, Pray for us.

[Jake Huether]

Also, I just finished reading Ven. Anne Catherine Emmerich's "Dolorous-Passion of Christ", and it was interesting to note:

She, while in a state of extacy, envisioned, after the resurrection, Christ being followed by thousands of souls who He had just released from Purgatory / Limbo. Christ brought these souls before His mother, Mary, and they all bowed down to Her as they would a Queen.

It made me think. Jesus must be so proud of His mother! I mean, c'mon! As humble as Jesus is, do you think that when we get to heaven, he's not going to introduce us to his Mother!? And do you think Jesus will be offended if whe bow down to his mother and kiss her hand!

Gives me chills! I cannot wait to venerate His most Holy Mum!

In fact, I'm giving myself a headstart!

Mary, Mother, I love you with all my heart. I consecrate myself to your Immaculate Heart. Pray for me always!

[FabdaEclectic]

Note*** I'm a big phatmass supporter and I got nothin but love for my Catholic brothers and sisters.....***

But does the word not say "There is one mediator between God and man...Jesus Christ. " ?

If Jesus is the only mediator, then why pray to Mary? I notice that she's not mentioned as one that we should pray to. I don't pray to angels, I don't pray to Peter or Paul, so why do Catholics pray to Mary?

My other question mark is the "Holy Mary, mother of God". God is, was and always has been God.....hence, no mother. I understand Mary as the mother of the earthly Jesus, but the mother of God? Why not say "Mary mother of Jesus"

I also have a hard time calling anyone "holy". Romans 3:23. ALL have sinned with the exception of Jesus. I don't believe anyone anywhere is holy.

Those are three things that as a Protestant, I've never understood.

Blessings

Fab