The Ex

[Guest Unforgiven]

A friend of mine gave me a link to this site. It's sad though because over the last couple of months, my religios faith has slowly diminished into nothing. I was a Catholic, moved on to Agnostic, but now I don't know what I am.

To me it makes no sense that if there was a God he would allow his own church to divide into the multiple branches and then allow those branches to continually attack and insult each other. How can I be sure that there is a God if I'm a Catholic? How can anybody be sure, b/c the way I see it, Assembly of God, Baptist and all those other branches proudly state that the others are wrong. How can I choose a side? My girlfriend who is an member of Assembly of God or Pentecostal asks me many things like how come I believe in saints? Her friends even went as far as to tell her to break up with me b/c of my Catholic background. "Too much" difference. Honestly, I'm tired of so much BS that goes around the world dealing with Christianity as a whole. Out of all religions out there, Christianity has been the one plagued with problems. Christianity goes as far as to question an individual's morals and "purity" making them stand out in the crowd and uses guilt trips to make people believe. Once at my girlfriend's church the pastor said something on the lines off "I don't know about you guys but after God has given me so much...how can people not praise the lord...you all can just sit there and not pray but I am b/c I love God" I see the point he was trying to make, but is it really all necessary. Forcing people to see Christian Ideas by forcing them to follow "what the Bible says" and closing them up to the world doesn't seem very "Christian like" to me. Christianity tries to adapt itself to the world around it, take a look at "THE PASSION", it is even trying to get into the movies. I know that people will see it, but that's another issue. I also hate to be called hypocritical. I don't believe what the Bible says, well what somebody interpreted the Bible to say, and therefore im a hypocrite if I'm a Christian. The Earth is 2K years old? Give me a break. It's a shame to sit back and watch people kill themselves over being "pure" and "good" to God. I see people who are proud to talk about God, to tell others about God, but I don't ever get the real feeling of what they are saying. To me, there are alot of people that call themselves Christians in an effort to make the world look at them as "good" and in a sense get a feeling of self pride.

I find nothing wrong with religion, to me religion is what holds this world together. Real or not it is the essence of what humanity is made up of. "God" is something that humans look up to in order for us to have somebody to consult or speak to. We have no idea if he is up there or not, but "God" just gives us the hope that every human needs. "God" can be used by humans as something to blame for everything. I go to Church sometimes, even if I don't believe, I take religion as a way for me to see the world different, hearing all the stories in the Bible just helps me understand things that go on right now. I see the Bible like one of those "the moral of the story is..." type of books. Also if there is a God, I don't think that he wants us to be so closed down on being "good Christians". Maybe he just wants us to live a happy life that is "good" for us? Maybe he just wants us to live our lifes without fear of retaliation?

So I have a lot more to say but I can't right now b/c I got to go, but I'll finish...

...I didn't say everything I had to say, but I got to go I'll type more soon.

[Laudate_Dominum]

I don't think religion and especially Christianity are about all that. Religion in general is about the meaning of life and about the strivings of human nature toward absolute values and absolute realities. Unchanging, eternal realities. Goodness, Truth, Love, etc..

And Christianity is not about the things you described. Something that is the center of the religion that is not often stressed enough is the fact that Christianity is a mystical religion. It is about being transformed by God and united with God even in this life and becoming instruments of His love and grace.

I can relate to a skeptical attitude, I've been there before. And it's true that in it's early stages faith has a quite tentative nature. It must grow through prayer to attain to a true certitude of faith. A mature faith is based on an intimate indwelling of God and a union with God that is beyond sense knowledge. It is awareness of the Personal God who unites Himself to us through Christ. If you are struggling I dare you to pursue the spiritual life as if your life depended on it (it kind of does). The Saints are trustworthy guides on the path of God. The Scriptures are the indispensible source of mystical illumination. If I was a doubter in the midst of the world I would pursue God with intensity! I would rather live alone in the desert crying out from my heart then pass my life away in a state of doubt or idle disinterestedness. Who cares if there are lots of religions and denominations. Pursue God for crying out loud. The Saints and spiritual treasures of the Catholic Church are the best if you want to follow the path toward a profound, intimate life with God and the fulfillment of our being. It's all about Love. That is what Christianity is all about, despite those who bear the name and lack the credentials. We're all weak sinners. It's not about that. It's not that we have loved Him, it's that He has loved us. We tend to play games with God and seek signs and make deals and blame God and all this other stuff. But if you want to know Him and love Him and be at peace, imitate those who have done it. Therese of Lisieux, Francis de Sales, John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Angela of Foligno, Francis of Assisi, Augustine, Catherine of Siena, etc..

Even if it's all a bunch of carp (which I assure you, with certitude that it is not) I would rather die having lived a life of love like Mother Teresa or some other Saint (or at least tried!) then as just some dude.

And I'm not saying that it doesn't matter what religion you are. I believe that the Catholic Church was established by Christ and that this bag is it. But if you're skeptical or unsure I don't think that's an excuse to not try. Pursue the highest things that make life worth living! Or else just wait for death and see how it goes. I'd rather follow those highest and most noble longings of the heart which proclaim the deeper meaning of our existence. This is God's call to draw near Him and find Him. You can't seperate God from morality and this is a stumbling block for many. They don't want to pursue God because they lack a willingnes to change. This disposition is essential for any deep love relationship to get off the ground (think of marriage). And a proper moral disposition is essential for attaining knowledge of God in love. Morality is basically being ordered toward Love, Goodness, etc. Which are attributes of God's essence. Again, the Saints are good models and examples and their lives express the Truths given by the Christ. I double dog dare you to at least give it a shot and see how it goes. What have you got to loose? If, after you've fallen in love with God and know His presence in every aspect of your life and being, you think it's all just a joke let me know. When the Risen, Glorified Christ dwells in you so intimately that His Loving presence pervades your every thought and act, and you're still not satisfied.. When you are transformed and your every act is Love and you long to simply pass into that Eternal Marriage with God we can talk. Not that I'm at that point or anything, but I've had enough tastes and enough gifts, signs and confirmations to know that it's for real and it's pretty stinking serious and worthwhile.

Peace.

[Laudate_Dominum]

P.S. I'm going to be praying for you! I know that I owe my faith and conversion to the prayers of others. Maybe what goes aroung comes around, or whatever.

Also about God allowing Christianity to divide and all that. Christ's last prayer before He died was for the unity of the Church. But it's part of God's plan that His Body the Church be maimed and disfigured. It's because of our sinfulness that this has happened too. We must bear the effects of sin and be conformed to the Crucified, it is the Cross that leads to the Resurrection. God allows evil in the world because in the end Good will triumph. It's not that big of a deal. The Saints often endured all kinds of crazy things. God allowed it because He knew they could handle it and the good that comes on the other side makes it more than worth it. Any of the martyrs can testify to this fact.

[phatcatholic]

Unforgiven,

first off, i want to welcome you to Phatmass and let you know that i am glad that you are here. i hope that in your stay here some of you questions can be answered and your reservations addressed about Christianity in general, and Catholicism specifically. i see that Laudate_Dominum is viewing this post as well, so i will encourage you to read his thoughts on the matter. he is an excellent defender of Christianity! also, if i may, i would like to address your post in sections at a time. this will be a long post, so i hope that you will stick w/ me til the end.

To me it makes no sense that if there was a God he would allow his own church to divide into the multiple branches and then allow those branches to continually attack and insult each other. How can I be sure that there is a God if I'm a Catholic? How can anybody be sure, b/c the way I see it, Assembly of God, Baptist and all those other branches proudly state that the others are wrong. How can I choose a side? My girlfriend who is an member of Assembly of God or Pentecostal asks me many things like how come I believe in saints? Her friends even went as far as to tell her to break up with me b/c of my Catholic background. "Too much" difference.

With your first sentence, you have addressed a significant problem w/in Protestantism. Christianity is indeed divided.

first off, i would contend however that these divisions are not "God's fault." i say it is man's. because God wishes for us to choose him--instead of forcing us to love him--he gave us a free will. this allows us to choose many good things....but also many bad ones. i contend that division results from those bad decisions that man has made over the years. also, b/c humanity is victim to the Sin of Adam (original sin), our ability to choose good is somewhat compromised. as a result, sin has caused many negative things to occur in our lives. secondly, i would contend that even though Christianity is divided, Christ's Church is not. i would furthermore contend that Catholicism is this Church. now, i realize that you have heard other denominations make similar claims. so, i ask you to inquire here why Catholics make this claim for themselves. i pray that you will find here an adequate, thorough, and convincing reply.

Honestly, I'm tired of so much BS that goes around the world dealing with Christianity as a whole. Out of all religions out there, Christianity has been the one plagued with problems. Christianity goes as far as to question an individual's morals and "purity" making them stand out in the crowd and uses guilt trips to make people believe. Once at my girlfriend's church the pastor said something on the lines off "I don't know about you guys but after God has given me so much...how can people not praise the lord...you all can just sit there and not pray but I am b/c I love God" I see the point he was trying to make, but is it really all necessary. Forcing people to see Christian Ideas by forcing them to follow "what the Bible says" and closing them up to the world doesn't seem very "Christian like" to me. Christianity tries to adapt itself to the world around it, take a look at "THE PASSION", it is even trying to get into the movies. I know that people will see it, but that's another issue.

At first, it would indeed appear that the presence of so many "problems" w/in Christianity would be a mark against it. to a degree you are right. there are many problems w/in Christianity, divisions being one i have already addressed.

first off, any institution made up of people is going to have problems. heck, the World has problems b/c it is filled w/ people! so, we must consider our own contribution to the problems of the world and to christianity. secondly, if Christians are "God's People" then does it not make sense that it is these very people that the Devil would attack and tempt the most? one must consider the role of sin and the devil in contributing to the problems w/in Christianity. finally, i must again acknowledge the different between "Christianity" and "Christ's Church." i contend that one can be a Christian and not be in Christ's Church. I also again contend that Christ's Church is the Catholic Church. what i know and firmly believe about Christ's Church is that "the gates of hell shall never prevail against it." so, despite its sins and internal disorder, its doctrine will always be true. Catholics and even Popes can sin in the most horrible of ways, but they can never harm what the Church believes about Faith and Morals, which Christ has insured will always be True.

Also, i contend that it is the mission and right of the Church to instruct the faithful on matters of faith and purity. Christ wishes for us to be w/ him in Heaven one day. in order for us to do that, we must have a guide that tells us right from wrong, and instructs us on what is necessary for our salvation and for eternal life w/ God. without this guide we will be lead astray. as for using guilt trips to achieve this goal, i would tenderly remind you that the Assemblies of God church and the actions of its leadership are not representative of Christianity in its entirety, nor of Catholicism is particular. i think that every Catholic would agree that guilt and condemnation in front of ur peers and family is not an effective way to instruct the faithful. i can also assure you that no Catholic here will judge you on your salvation or publically condemn u in such a manner. we make an honest effort to be as charitable as possible, and we have moderators that keep the peace.

finally, we will not force you to do or believe anything here. this is not the practice of Catholicism either. we love the Truth and we will defend it, but it is up to you rather you accept it. Yes, as a catholic, i do beleive that there are things that i MUST believe, rather i like it or not. but, this is so b/c i have researched my faith, and i have found overwhelming proof which convinces me that the Catholic Church has the right, mission, and privelage to claim such authority over me. i accept this w/ faith, reason, and full consent. in your stay here, and as you learn more about christianity, i encourage you to use these same faculties as well. i have not been coerced. nor do i blindly follow Catholicism b/c "its what my family always did." i follow it b/c it is a conscious decision that i have made. you can make one too.

I also hate to be called hypocritical. I don't believe what the Bible says, well what somebody interpreted the Bible to say, and therefore im a hypocrite if I'm a Christian. The Earth is 2K years old? Give me a break. It's a shame to sit back and watch people kill themselves over being "pure" and "good" to God. I see people who are proud to talk about God, to tell others about God, but I don't ever get the real feeling of what they are saying. To me, there are alot of people that call themselves Christians in an effort to make the world look at them as "good" and in a sense get a feeling of self pride.

this is indeed a harsh occurance, to be called a "hypocrite." many will claim that they have the "true" interpretation of Scripture, that they have been "inspired by the Holy Spirit" and that you are wrong and a hypocrite if u disagree w/ them. the key here, however, is to decide who actually has a right to make such claims to inspiration and truth. not every christian can make this claim. i would contend that the Catholic Church can. however, don't let this turn you away. while you are here, explore the reasons why the Church makes this claim, and decide for yourself.

secondly, to comment on my own personal experience, i "kill myself to be pure and good" b/c i want to be in heaven w/ God one day, where there is eternal happiness and no suffering! this is grand end, but the road is not easy. but, i try and try b/c that is both what i want and what God wants for me. i would imagine that most Christians feel the same way.

finally, regarding Christianity as a status symbol or an issue of pride, i can not speak for all Christians. but, i do know that Catholics consider their Catholicism to be a gift from God that they in NO WAY deserve. this great thing we have we could in now way acquire on our own or based on our own merits. therefore, i have no pride. i don't deserve it, yet God has given it to me nonetheless. and, i love it and defend it not b/c I am good, but b/c God is, and he was good enough to give his Chuch to me. you would probably agree w/ me in saying that all Christians need to be more aware of the GIFT that their christianity is to them.

I find nothing wrong with religion, to me religion is what holds this world together. Real or not it is the essence of what humanity is made up of. "God" is something that humans look up to in order for us to have somebody to consult or speak to. We have no idea if he is up there or not, but "God" just gives us the hope that every human needs. "God" can be used by humans as something to blame for everything. I go to Church sometimes, even if I don't believe, I take religion as a way for me to see the world different, hearing all the stories in the Bible just helps me understand things that go on right now. I see the Bible like one of those "the moral of the story is..." type of books. Also if there is a God, I don't think that he wants us to be so closed down on being "good Christians". Maybe he just wants us to live a happy life that is "good" for us? Maybe he just wants us to live our lifes without fear of retaliation?

As to whether there is really a God or not, i would sincerely encourage you to read this article, which proves God's existence using logic and reasoning, instead of the Bible or anything that would require Christian faith on your part. it is very convincing and insightful, and i pray that you will open ur heart to it.

that said, i would contend that God does want us to be happy. however, that is the very reason why he requires certain things for us. it is illogical to assume or even want God to simply allow us to sin and sin and sin, and constantly turn our back on him w/o any punishment as a result. afterall, God wants us to be happy, so he wants us to be in heaven, which is eternal happiness! however, there are certain things we must do to get there. also, if heaven is going to be the consequence of us choosing to follow him, then there must also be a consequence for those who choose not to follow him. this is the only just and fair way.

also, u must know that punishment, and even hell, are things that God does not impose on us b/c he is a mean, vengeful God who seeks retribution. on the contrary, punishment and hell are things that WE CHOOSE. we willfuly choose this punishment every time we choose to turn our back on the one person who wants us to be happy the most. therefore, this is not something that we can blame God on, but only ourselves.

after pondering what all i have written so far, i am afraid that i have thrown too much at you all at once. i hope i have not scared you away! please stay and continue to ask questions. there are people here who will respond to u much more effectively and succintly than i, so there is hope that you can gain much from your stay here, even if u have not gained much from my response.

again, i am glad that you are here. welcome to Phatmass! Good Luck and may God Bless you in your search for the Truth.

Pax Christi ("Peace of Christ"),

phatcatholic

Edited February 2, 2004 by phatcatholic

[Laudate_Dominum]

Also who cares what the baptists, lutherans, or whatever are saying. And who cares how so and so interprets the Bible. What about what the Church teaches? If that's what your leaving afterall. It doesn't matter what these other people are doing or saying. Scoop up a copy of the catechism and see what the Church actually says about stuff. Read a few encyclicals, peep the writings of the Saints and Mystics. If you still feel like this bag ain't it, come here and ask questions or something. I promise you that Catholicism is the real deal. And I see it as a great gift from God that you've got it right under your nose.

Sorry if my posts are muddled or anything, it's very late and I'm kind of out of it.

Peace my friend.

[Jake Huether]

To me it makes no sense that if there was a God he would allow his own church to divide into the multiple branches and then allow those branches to continually attack and insult each other.

I just wanted to point out that Christs Church isn't divided. He did, however, allow poeple to seperate from the Church. It's called a free will. We can follow or reject.

But the Catholic Church, Christs Church is not divided.

Outside the Catholic Church, yes, indeed these churches may divided - as they are not Christs.

God bless.

[Dave]

Remember that Protestantism came about because of sinful men who had their own agendas. Until they came along, there was none of this confusion and stuff about what to believe. Only the Catholic Church teaches ALL the things that Christ and His apostles taught. It's been doing that for 2000 years!

[Theoketos]

Also if there is a God, I don't think that he wants us to be so closed down on being "good Christians". Maybe he just wants us to live a happy life that is "good" for us? Maybe he just wants us to live our lifes without fear of retaliation?

Unforgiven,

Welcome to Phatmass.

All God wants for us is to be happy!

That is the entire point of Christianity! If you are a goo Christian, you will have the freedom to be truely happy. You will no longer be a slave to sin.

Also a true Christian belief is that guilt trips and other forms of manipulation are bad. I know that the truth will set you free!

Please keep in mind that practically no one is prefect, and so sometimes certain Christians misrepresent thier own faith.

WHAT YOU MUST DO RIGHT NOW IS LOVE EVERYONE YOU SEE!!!

That right now will bring you to the closest thing on earth you can be to peace.

P.S. Laudate, you do indeed praise the Lord, but you keep stealing my thunder. I am blessed to read what you type.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Unforgiven,

Wow, everyone else made such great comments that I dont think there is anything else left to say. But you will be in my prayers. Alot of us can understand your view point. Been there done that.

But what my advice for you would be this. If you truely dont believe God is up there then prove that to yourself.

Here are a few things you can do, but mind you these things do take time, its not an over-night answer.

1. Go in front of the Blessed Sacrament for one hour a week. More if you can but at least one hour a week. Kneel before Christ and ask Him - "Are you there or arent you there?" "Do you love me or dont you?". I can assure you that if you do this with an open heart and mind and REALLY want an answer, Christ will answer you.

2. Grab the Catechism. You can get one from your local Parish Church. Read it and learn what the Church teachs and the things you have questions on come here and ask.

3. Attend Mass Every Sunday. The graces that are poured out each Sunday during Mass is a sure sign of God's love for us.

4. Read the Bible daily

And the most important thing I could stress is that being a follower of Christ is not about breaking rules, its about a relationship. Its a relationship with God, the same God that loves us soo much that He Died and suffered for us so that we can believe in Him and be with Him for eternity. Its not about counting how many sins you've commited, its about being faithful and loving the one who created you out of love.

A quote that was giving to me a few weeks ago still holds true in my life and I try to pass it on as much as possible - "God doesnt require us to be successful, He just wants us to be faithful".

My prayers are with you unforgiven

Im glad you came here for this. I look forward to talking with you in the future. If you need anything or have further questions, feel free to pm me or email me.

God Bless

Yours through Mary,

CatholicAndFanatical

[Anna]

Unforgiven,

Christians aren't the only religions that are divided. My goodness, the Muslims are divided into many different sects, and they're even killing each other! Jews also are divided.

The only religion which is united, in fact, is the One True religion, Catholicism.

God gave us commandments and rules to live by so that we could live this life for love of Him, and enjoy His company in the next (eternal) life. Look at people who break away from the commandments. Are they really happy? Does anything fill the void that is left when we omit God from our lives?

Why shouldn't we interject religion into a single movie? Hasn't God already been mocked in enough movies? Hasn't He been insulted and offended in many movies?

What do you see wrong with purity? Purity is a good thing. Take a drink of water, for instance. Would you like your glass and the water inside it to be crystal clear? Or would you like a greasy, spotted glass with impurities floating around in your drink? Yes, many of us strive to keep our lives pure, but that is because we want our souls to be refreshing and pleasing to the Lord who made us and who loves us so much.

Why are things so bad in the world? That's because God gives us our own free will. Circumstances are what we make them. God gave us a beautiful world, it's up to us to show Him our appreciation for it. He gave us neighbors; it's up to us to show them love and kindness. He gave us life; it's up to us to live it fully for Him....or not. Your choice. Free will. The world gets messy when we leave God out of the picture.

Pax Christi. <><

[Muschi]

Unforgiven-

Aside from all of the above excellent responses you've received, I hardly could add anything more.

BUT........I can't resist because your discouragement and disallusionment mirror my own from two years ago. The only difference between yu and I is the fact that I was a Pentecostal/Assemblies of God follower of Jesus.

Just like you, I could not believe the Bible as interpreted by "whom-ever". I was about to give up on Christianity as some sort of sick joke on man-kind until I researched it's history and Judaism. Did you know that not even Judaism maintained ONE un-divided faith?.........I can certainly relate and understand your frustration as to this, but if you go back to the ROOT, then you'll see and the Holy Scriptures wil make much more sense. DON'T give up!!! The fact that you are where you are seems to me that God wants to use you because of what you are going through. You can't possibly know the good you'll be able to do for another soul. Please don't give up! But please keep us posted either in a private e-mail with whomever you feel most comfortable or here on the forum.

Ps. If you want to be forgiven, you will be! - May God bless you and heal you! - Muschi

[Paladin D]

Welcome to the board man, enjoy your stay. Ask anything, and we'll do our best to answer.

[Donna]

Well, Unforgiven, I can relate (and hello).

Some years ago, I realized I had everything I'd always wanted (Laudate's "noble things" description). Then, I realized I was "emptier" than ever.

For some bizarre reason, I kept seeing an image of Jesus crucified in my mind. Except for the fact I didn't belive in Jesus or the Cross. Not really.

One day I told my best friend the above. He said, "tell God. He knows you don't believe anyway."

I could see at once that that was a way out, a way to solve my problem ("Hey God-as-Jesus, are you for real? What about this cross?").

And this solution scared me.

Eventually, I began a conversation with God. No kneeling, nothing formal. Just speaking to God in my mind, saying everything I didn't believe about Christianity, but would he care to explain his point of view on it?

One soution might be to simply ask God to show you whether or not he exists.

[phatcatholic]

Unforgiven,

you didn't leave us did you? i hope not. have our responses in this thread helped you in any way? i'm curious to read your further thoughts on the matter and to see if there is anything else that we can do for you.

hope to hear from you soon,

phatcatholic

[MJS]

I just wanted to say it is great that you are asking hard questions. So many times we are too afraid to really feel, think, and discuss. You will greatly value this process that you are going through.