How Do You Say "no" To An Archbishop?

[Era Might]

The Priest is an icon of Christ. The primary duty of a Priest is to offer the Sacraments, which are the ordinary means of grace and salvation. He is also a representative of the Church in a way that the laity cannot be. His ministry is an extension of the ministry of the Bishop. This comes attached with practical administration (such as finances), but no Priest will ever go to hell because he was a poor administrator (unless he was was purposely negligent). Many Priests may go to hell because they did not fulfill their primary duties: to offer the Sacraments, to proclaim the truth according to the teaching of the Church, and to make the people holy. We must all proclaim and die for the Gospel, but the Priest is our shepherd. He must protect the sheep on the narrow path. Parents don't know how they will deal with every problem that children bring, but they undertake their vocation with faith and trust in God's grace; like Priests, they learn as they go. I'm not trying to minimize the practical concerns of a Priest, but if you have a vocation you can learn what you need to learn. What matters most is that you want to serve God and help his people become Saints.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1297934' date='Jun 18 2007, 03:37 PM']Its not a career, its a call.
Very simple.

If you are called by the God, you simply say yes.
If you are not called by God, you say no.

Equivocating that you don't like the current climate is a poor excuse of an answer to the Archbishop AND to God.
God doesn't ask our opinion of the climate or condition of the Church, He just expects us to wade in and start fixing it.

read my little blurb below.[/quote]
I say this with the upmost level of respect.. but every time you post, to me anyway, you come off as very condescending.

That being said, I've been around here for a long time, and I know that you are very loving and kind. However, sometimes, your responses don't show it.

[PedroX]

fidei defensor: You haven't been here all that long, and Cmom is a mom, not condescending.

VaticanIILiturgist: If God is calling you, then you will be prepared as He sees fit, not as we see fit. The most important lesson I've learned in the seminary is to trust. Trust my formation, trust the formation staff, trust the Bishop, trust the vocations director and trust GOD.

It can seem very overwhelming, but it will all work out to God's glory as long as we trust.

peace...

[bonoducchi]

I have to be careful when selecting music for my parish, because there is a recessional song that always makes we want to call up my diocesan vocation director (also my opera buddy) and sign up.

Refrain:
"With full voice and a joyful shout,
God's name we will proclaim.
With thanks and praise enkindling,
the message lives the same.
For the love of Christ compels us,
for the love of Christ supports us,
for the love of Christ urges us on:
the love of Christ urges us on!

Verses:
1. Our God of grace and mercy,
who has called and chosen us,
is glorified through justice, faith and love.

2. Sent forth to reap the harvest now,
coheirs with Jesus Christ,
we heal, we preach, we spread the news of love."

[sismaria]

I think your arguments against becoming a priest are quite shallow and sound like rationalizations to have an excuse not to truly discern.
But your lack of openness and trust that God can form you despite the limitations of any seminary program (because they are all made up of humans which will always be imperfect) to me indicate that perhaps you might not be called to be a priest. If you are, I think God would have to adjust some of your attitudes for Him to be able to teach you what He needs to, no matter what program you are part of.

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='sismaria' post='1301004' date='Jun 24 2007, 11:54 PM']I think your arguments against becoming a priest are quite shallow and sound like rationalizations to have an excuse not to truly discern.
But your lack of openness and trust that God can form you despite the limitations of any seminary program (because they are all made up of humans which will always be imperfect) to me indicate that perhaps you might not be called to be a priest. If you are, I think God would have to adjust some of your attitudes for Him to be able to teach you what He needs to, no matter what program you are part of.[/quote]

Was that encouragement or a rebuke? I can't quite tell....

[Maria]

Both?



[quote name='Dismas' post='1300326' date='Jun 23 2007, 10:47 PM'](Just remember that bilingual masses are mostly incomprehensible to everyone, even for those who know both languages - the gears really grind).[/quote]
Tebbly sowwy, but nope. Just about all our diocesan stuff is bilingual, and there are tons of other bilingual stuff here, and no one (or almost no one) has a problem with it. It works out really well. Of course, I live in a city where you switch languages with some frequency in any case, so...

[TotusTuusMaria]

J.M.J.

It is just a meeting. It is not like you two are going to sit down and start filling out applications for the seminary. I think you should meet with him. I mean, what exactly do you think is going to happen that you are so fearful of just meeting and talking with him? It seems to me like you know how to say no, and everyone here is suggesting ways for you to say "yes".

[shortnun]

I've read through the responses thus far on this thread and I'm trying to chose my words carefully and constructively contribute to this conversation. My first question is this: V2Lit, do you see "priest" and "pastor of a parish" as the same thing? Being a priest does NOT mean you have to be a pastor. If you enter a diocesan seminary, it may be very likely though.

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1298985' date='Jun 20 2007, 01:30 PM']...

In regards to seminaries....I'm not concerned about learning the wrong stuff. I'm concerned about NOT learning the right stuff. Seminaries don't prepare men for parish ministry. They prepare them to use the index in the Catechism. There is little formation for personnel management, multicultural concerns, and general parish leadership. I want to pastor souls to more active service to Christ, formed and transformed by the liturgy and commissioned for real service to the Kingdom. So rare is it that a pastor is formed to do that.[/quote]
I agree--especially with your last line. I attend a Catholic graduate school/house of formation for a religious order. Here religious men and women study along side lay men and women. Time and time again--especially after I interned with the DRE at a parish--I am thankful that I've had classes for academic formation (doctrine, etc) [u][b]AND [/b][/u]ministerial/professional formation (leadership skills, class/race/gender ministry). Finding a balance b/w the academic and the ministerial isn't easy--but it's to the detriment of the church overall if it's not the goal for priests and laity in ministerial training.

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1300487' date='Jun 24 2007, 09:50 AM']... There are staff members in the US with doctoral degrees and 25 years experience in ministry. Many seminaries give precious little time to pastoral formation, while the laity are immersing themselves in it. To simply say "I'm the dad and I say so" is recipe for disastrous results (I've seen it happen all too frequently - a hot-headed priest thinks he knows everything because he had oil smeared on his hands and he burns every bridge in sight). By the way, my dad died last month, so we aren't really speaking...

Also, remember a parish is also a civil corporation with a budget of, in some cases, well over $1 million. Am I really trained and competent to administer that budget?

In terms of multicultural concerns, I'm not worried about bilingual Masses. I'm concerned about pastoring a flock made up of an old German parish merged with a Hispanic community, one dying and one just beginning to thrive. I worry about being able to minister to a dying way of life while a new way of life is taking root.

These are my concerns...not reasons to say "no"...just concerns.[/quote]
We read and study case studies just like the ones you describe in my classes. Your experience in ministry is a very real description of what's going on there. And I couldn't agree with you more--they don't become reasons to flat-out deny a call. But they do become very real concerns in discernment.

[quote name='Era Might' post='1300580' date='Jun 24 2007, 02:35 PM']The Priest is an icon of Christ. The primary duty of a Priest is to offer the Sacraments, which are the ordinary means of grace and salvation. He is also a representative of the Church in a way that the laity cannot be. His ministry is an extension of the ministry of the Bishop. This comes attached with practical administration (such as finances), but no Priest will ever go to hell because he was a poor administrator (unless he was was purposely negligent). Many Priests may go to hell because they did not fulfill their primary duties: to offer the Sacraments, to proclaim the truth according to the teaching of the Church, and to make the people holy. We must all proclaim and die for the Gospel, but the Priest is our shepherd. He must protect the sheep on the narrow path. Parents don't know how they will deal with every problem that children bring, but they undertake their vocation with faith and trust in God's grace; like Priests, they learn as they go. I'm not trying to minimize the practical concerns of a Priest, but if you have a vocation you can learn what you need to learn. What matters most is that you want to serve God and help his people become Saints.[/quote]
I agree, it's impossible to know everything you need to know in a career or vocation. And much of that way of life will require a person to "learn as they go." But we can't recklessly advocate walking blindly through life and picking up only what we need to at that very moment. That's why parents can enroll themselves in parenting classes--and why engaged couples go through pre-Cana--and why being a priest or a religious takes YEARS of education formation. We all ought to reflect and learn from previous life experiences. But at the same time, we hone our gifts and become even more aware of the good that God works through as us we prepare ourselves for the vocation He has in store for us. And in my opinion, it is critical that those working in religious ministry--priests, lay workers, religious--have the breadth and depth of training that will equip them to be the best faciliatators of grace possible.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='PedroX' post='1300818' date='Jun 24 2007, 08:13 PM']fidei defensor: You haven't been here all that long, and Cmom is a mom, not condescending.

VaticanIILiturgist: If God is calling you, then you will be prepared as He sees fit, not as we see fit. The most important lesson I've learned in the seminary is to trust. Trust my formation, trust the formation staff, trust the Bishop, trust the vocations director and trust GOD.

It can seem very overwhelming, but it will all work out to God's glory as long as we trust.

peace...[/quote]
Why do you always wait until I'm out of town to pop in for a visit...

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='shortnun' post='1302095' date='Jun 26 2007, 11:44 AM']My first question is this: V2Lit, do you see "priest" and "pastor of a parish" as the same thing? Being a priest does NOT mean you have to be a pastor. If you enter a diocesan seminary, it may be very likely though.[/quote]

In the current state of the clergy in the US, I would find it almost unconscionable to be ordained a priest and not expect to be a pastor. With access to the Sacraments declining, I would feel absolutely bound to be amongst God's people so that the Sacraments would be accessible to them. The Sacraments were made for the Church - having the power to convey them and not doing so is a disservice to all.

[shortnun]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1302405' date='Jun 26 2007, 05:05 PM']In the current state of the clergy in the US, I would find it almost unconscionable to be ordained a priest and not expect to be a pastor. With access to the Sacraments declining, I would feel absolutely bound to be amongst God's people so that the Sacraments would be accessible to them. The Sacraments were made for the Church - having the power to convey them and not doing so is a disservice to all.[/quote]
I would agree--and then I would add a further clarification. Not all men who feel called to priesthood feel called to pastor a parish. And for that I am very thankful. Likewise I think the Holy Spirit equips people to have a pastoring charim without having them be priests!

The sacramental rights, privileges, responsibilities bestowed on a priest at ordination are not limited stricktly to pastoring a parish. There are numerous other ways to [i]pastor [/i](Latin (v., n.): shepherd). The other ways I think of include teaching, chaplaincy, itinerant preaching, solidarity and witness with the poor, etc. Now many of those roles might overlap with pastoring a parish. But each individual role I named includes, for a priest, a necessary element of the sacramental expression of the priest's orders. In your words, to "have the power to convey them (sacraments) and not do so is a disservice to all." I couldn't agree more.

[PedroX]

HSMom,

That's just the way I roll!

Hope all is well in the great white north!

peace...

[Dismas]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1302405' date='Jun 26 2007, 05:05 PM']In the current state of the clergy in the US, I would find it almost unconscionable to be ordained a priest and not expect to be a pastor. With access to the Sacraments declining, I would feel absolutely bound to be amongst God's people so that the Sacraments would be accessible to them. The Sacraments were made for the Church - having the power to convey them and not doing so is a disservice to all.[/quote]

Also, there is the vocation of a Priest Religious. I too believe that my talents and weaknesses would not allow for me to be a lone pastor. For this reason I believe I am more suited to being a member of a religious community. Perhaps one day I could be a pastor, yet I would need a great deal of priestly aid in doing so.

I had to say no to an Archbishop as well, yet he is happy that I would most likely still be serving in the diocese.

[son_of_angels]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1302405' date='Jun 26 2007, 05:05 PM']In the current state of the clergy in the US, I would find it almost unconscionable to be ordained a priest and not expect to be a pastor. With access to the Sacraments declining, I would feel absolutely bound to be amongst God's people so that the Sacraments would be accessible to them. The Sacraments were made for the Church - having the power to convey them and not doing so is a disservice to all.[/quote]

I do not agree, but you have to form your own conscience in this matter. If you are a priest and close to the bishop, perhaps you can help to fix the seminary problem, perhaps you can make more available the sacraments. If these issues bother you, realize that Christ often stirs our hearts for a reason, other than simply "that they be stirred."
I do however find it somewhat ridiculous that you have so little respect or deference towards priests who are not parish priests. How do you expect there to ever be enough parish priests if contemplative or even administrative priests are not doing their jobs? Contemplative priests offer themselves, with the whole church (not simply their congregation) to our Lord in the exercise of the sacraments, and thereby obtain grace for the whole Church. Moreover, in chapels and monasteries dedicated to prayer and the sacraments, many vocations are formed that could never grow alongside the busy, often too hectic lives of the parish priest. Consider the parable of the sower, how one seed fell on hard and stony ground, and never gained a root. So it might be with those who grow up around parish priests leading the hard life of modern ministry.

If an Archbishop seems to believe in your vocation, even though you may not be sure where such a vocation would lead you (even to a parish, prepared or not), remember that it is Christ himself (in terms of his authority) who is expressing his belief in your vocation. A Bishop is his vicar, symbolized by the cathedra and the triple swing of the incense (the same given to the Blessed Sacrament). In other words, have faith and prod him with your questions and concerns. Christ is acting in him, let the Bishop's encouragement act on you.

I always have liked the words to the Ven. John Cardinal Newman's hymn, "Lead kindly light amid th' encircling gloom, lead thou me on; the light is gone and I am far from home, lead thou me on. Keep thou my feet, I do not ask to see the distant scene, one step enough for me."