How Do You Say "no" To An Archbishop?

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1297801' date='Jun 18 2007, 03:09 PM']The archbishop of my diocese has approached me several times over the past year about a vocation to the priesthood. He has invited me over for dinner and given me his home phone number in case I ever have questions about recognizing God's call.

While I'm honored by his confidence and concern for me, I just don't feel called to the priesthood in the current climate in the US. My bishop, however, seems to have other thoughts on the matter.

How do you say "no" to an archbishop?[/quote]

You don't ... :-).

Maybe the Lord could use you as an instrument for change? And maybe the Bishop is picking up on this from the Lord?

I remember my initial thoughts of leaving my country in order to pursue religious life -- it was an adamant no. It took years to get me to the point where I'd be willing to go wherever the Lord wanted me to. Now I'm willing to go ... and in my heart I know I will return to my country but that's an unknown (and I'm ok with that). But I may have lost years in the process.

Do not place any "roadblocks" to your vocation -- He has something in mind. And unluckily (from experience) we put roadblocks in the way. Trust me its easier to remove the roadblocks early than to do it later.

-- Carmen

Edited June 19, 2007 by cmariadiaz

[batteddy]

[quote]My concern is that the priestly formation in the US is sorrily lacking in many areas and I don't feel called to incorporate myself into that deficiency and then pastor God's people with weaknesses that can affect their practice and recpetion of the faith.[/quote]

But if you don't, things are never going to change.

An archbishop pursuing you for a vocation is a very rare thing. I'd love a chance to talk to and have dinner with an archbishop. How did you meet?

If he keeps asking you about a vocation, tell him why you don't want it. Might be a wakeup call for him. Say, respectfully, "Hey, listen, I don't hear very good things about seminary formation as it exists in the hands of the baby boomers. If you want the next generation of young people to embrace the Faith, and pusue vocations to the priesthood and religious life, you're going to have to stop playing to the baby boomers as your prime demographic just because they are the ones who currently have the money. You need to clean things up for the younger generation. They're orthodox. They're more favorable towards traditional forms of liturgy and devotion. They're smart. Listen, a lot of people have already left the church in the past 50 years. A lot of young people are only nominally Catholic. It's a disaster, and you keep pretending the status quo is fine. BUT the ones who are left, are very good, are obedient, are orthodox. Don't lose them too. Clean up the seminary, crack down on nonsense, don't accept heresy from the pulpit. Rock the boat a little, for crying out loud! Then, maybe, I can consider what you've said about a vocation. But right now, I don't think, for the good of my soul, I can let myself just become another bureaucrat in an institution suffering a major crisis of leadership."

Honestly, you seem to have something of an upper hand here. He seems to really want you, need you. He's sort of "begging" isn't he? Well, tell him the plain and honest truth.

[Lioness For Christ]

Still, batteddy, gotta remember to talk to him with respect as being a Bishop is from God and the status deserves it! (meaning maybe tone down the harshness a bit )

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='batteddy' post='1298625' date='Jun 19 2007, 06:37 PM']But if you don't, things are never going to change.

An archbishop pursuing you for a vocation is a very rare thing. I'd love a chance to talk to and have dinner with an archbishop. How did you meet?[/quote]

Dinner is just dinner....I brought the wine, he made the pasta. Simple....

We met at a large parish Mass I was liturgist and musician for and then we worked together the next day at another Mass, entirely by coincidence. I'm pretty well known in the Chancery office in my archdiocese and also work with our judicial vicar at a parish. Since I work at a large parish, he comes out to pray with us relatively frequently so we have a lot of contact.

In regards to seminaries....I'm not concerned about learning the wrong stuff. I'm concerned about NOT learning the right stuff. Seminaries don't prepare men for parish ministry. They prepare them to use the index in the Catechism. There is little formation for personnel management, multicultural concerns, and general parish leadership. I want to pastor souls to more active service to Christ, formed and transformed by the liturgy and commissioned for real service to the Kingdom. So rare is it that a pastor is formed to do that.

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1297959' date='Jun 18 2007, 06:07 PM']I don't see what weather has to do with you becoming a priest. Maybe I'm missing something.[/quote]

I refuse to pastor any flock with a surrounding average temperature of less than 71 degrees Fahrenheit.

[Veritas]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1298985' date='Jun 20 2007, 01:30 PM']Dinner is just dinner....I brought the wine, he made the pasta. Simple....

We met at a large parish Mass I was liturgist and musician for and then we worked together the next day at another Mass, entirely by coincidence. I'm pretty well known in the Chancery office in my archdiocese and also work with our judicial vicar at a parish. Since I work at a large parish, he comes out to pray with us relatively frequently so we have a lot of contact.

In regards to seminaries....I'm not concerned about learning the wrong stuff. I'm concerned about NOT learning the right stuff. Seminaries don't prepare men for parish ministry. They prepare them to use the index in the Catechism. There is little formation for personnel management, multicultural concerns, and general parish leadership. I want to pastor souls to more active service to Christ, formed and transformed by the liturgy and commissioned for real service to the Kingdom. So rare is it that a pastor is formed to do that.[/quote]

+

You've got to know the meat first. There are lots of pastoral opportunities (and demands) along with good seminary formation. I know someone you should talk to.

[inDEED]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1297959' date='Jun 18 2007, 03:07 PM']I don't see what weather has to do with you becoming a priest. Maybe I'm missing something.[/quote]

I'm in the same boat...

[journeyman]

I didn't see anything about weather . . . but CMom's signature line changes from time to time, and perhaps your browser is picking up a new/old one ??

Here's what I saw:

The ethic of inclusion in the gospels could be stated:
You can come as you are and leave behind what you can,
but you may not stay as you were or do as you will.

–The Rt. Rev. Francis Gray

[Dismas]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1298986' date='Jun 20 2007, 01:41 PM']I refuse to pastor any flock with a surrounding average temperature of less than 71 degrees Fahrenheit.[/quote]

If I remember correctly, the spiritual temperature of Ars, France was well below freezing. Then entered the worst student in the seminary of Lyons. The rest is history.

Are you called to priesthood? I don't know. What I do know is that an Archbishop may see in you something he knows his archdiocese needs, badly.

Now I don't know you, and I can't call on your vocation. Perhaps you are called to be a priest religious, or a brother. Perhaps you are called to marriage.

What I do know is that a priest gives me Jesus. What I do know is that a priest's hands are my Lord's when he absolves me.

Does a priest need to know basic finances? Yes, but there's such thing as good advice and help.

Does a priest need to know how to speak publicly? Definitely. Sure you can and should take classes on this, but in the end it is more a craft than a skill. More an art than a science. You need practice and get solid advice from those you trust.

As for personnel management, it's easier than you think when you remember you're the dad and they are your children, even if they are rebellious, tantrum-prone, middle-aged adolescents. The rest is forms and checks.

As for multicultural concerns, give what you can when you can for the sake of all their souls. Don't betray one group for the sake of another, and remember you are the dad, they aren't. (Just remember that bilingual masses are mostly incomprehensible to everyone, even for those who know both languages - the gears really grind).

As for church leadership, yup, you're the dad, they aren't. Talk to your dad, and other dads. Pick up how they handle things best. Trust in your bishop, the Holy Father, and most of all Jesus. Sure, you'll botch here and there as any human, but as long as you hold true and stay firm, you'll make an excellent priest. Also, it doesn't hurt listening to Dr. Ray Guarendi on the radio, as you will learn how to be a good dad.

Just remember, a priest gives us Jesus first and foremost. We, the Church militant, are literally dying for good priests.

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='Dismas' post='1300326' date='Jun 23 2007, 09:47 PM']If I remember correctly, the spiritual temperature of Ars, France was well below freezing. Then entered the worst student in the seminary of Lyons. The rest is history.

Are you called to priesthood? I don't know. What I do know is that an Archbishop may see in you something he knows his archdiocese needs, badly.

Now I don't know you, and I can't call on your vocation. Perhaps you are called to be a priest religious, or a brother. Perhaps you are called to marriage.

What I do know is that a priest gives me Jesus. What I do know is that a priest's hands are my Lord's when he absolves me.

Does a priest need to know basic finances? Yes, but there's such thing as good advice and help.

Does a priest need to know how to speak publicly? Definitely. Sure you can and should take classes on this, but in the end it is more a craft than a skill. More an art than a science. You need practice and get solid advice from those you trust.

As for personnel management, it's easier than you think when you remember you're the dad and they are your children, even if they are rebellious, tantrum-prone, middle-aged adolescents. The rest is forms and checks.

As for multicultural concerns, give what you can when you can for the sake of all their souls. Don't betray one group for the sake of another, and remember you are the dad, they aren't. (Just remember that bilingual masses are mostly incomprehensible to everyone, even for those who know both languages - the gears really grind).

As for church leadership, yup, you're the dad, they aren't. Talk to your dad, and other dads. Pick up how they handle things best. Trust in your bishop, the Holy Father, and most of all Jesus. Sure, you'll botch here and there as any human, but as long as you hold true and stay firm, you'll make an excellent priest. Also, it doesn't hurt listening to Dr. Ray Guarendi on the radio, as you will learn how to be a good dad.

Just remember, a priest gives us Jesus first and foremost. We, the Church militant, are literally dying for good priests.[/quote]

Your points are well taken, but I fear you may oversimplify the pastoral duties of a diocesan parish priest. Sure, there is a paternal element of the pastoral relationship, but also remember there are people with much more diverse life experience than you could ever possibly have and the role will not alwyas be so clearly defined. There are staff members in the US with doctoral degrees and 25 years experience in ministry. Many seminaries give precious little time to pastoral formation, while the laity are immersing themselves in it. To simply say "I'm the dad and I say so" is recipe for disastrous results (I've seen it happen all too frequently - a hot-headed priest thinks he knows everything because he had oil smeared on his hands and he burns every bridge in sight). By the way, my dad died last month, so we aren't really speaking...

Also, remember a parish is also a civil corporation with a budget of, in some cases, well over $1 million. Am I really trained and competent to administer that budget?

In terms of multicultural concerns, I'm not worried about bilingual Masses. I'm concerned about pastoring a flock made up of an old German parish merged with a Hispanic community, one dying and one just beginning to thrive. I worry about being able to minister to a dying way of life while a new way of life is taking root.

These are my concerns...not reasons to say "no"...just concerns.

[Veritas]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1300487' date='Jun 24 2007, 09:50 AM']Your points are well taken, but I fear you may oversimplify the pastoral duties of a diocesan parish priest. Sure, there is a paternal element of the pastoral relationship, but also remember there are people with much more diverse life experience than you could ever possibly have and the role will not alwyas be so clearly defined. There are staff members in the US with doctoral degrees and 25 years experience in ministry. Many seminaries give precious little time to pastoral formation, while the laity are immersing themselves in it. To simply say "I'm the dad and I say so" is recipe for disastrous results (I've seen it happen all too frequently - a hot-headed priest thinks he knows everything because he had oil smeared on his hands and he burns every bridge in sight). By the way, my dad died last month, so we aren't really speaking...

Also, remember a parish is also a civil corporation with a budget of, in some cases, well over $1 million. Am I really trained and competent to administer that budget?

In terms of multicultural concerns, I'm not worried about bilingual Masses. I'm concerned about pastoring a flock made up of an old German parish merged with a Hispanic community, one dying and one just beginning to thrive. I worry about being able to minister to a dying way of life while a new way of life is taking root.

These are my concerns...not reasons to say "no"...just concerns.[/quote]

+

Nothing worth doing is ever easy. No one ever said being a priest is an easy job.

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='Veritas' post='1300524' date='Jun 24 2007, 11:35 AM']+

Nothing worth doing is ever easy. No one ever said being a priest is an easy job.[/quote]

True dat....isn't that what the kids say nowadays?

[Dismas]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1300487' date='Jun 24 2007, 09:50 AM']Your points are well taken, but I fear you may oversimplify the pastoral duties of a diocesan parish priest. Sure, there is a paternal element of the pastoral relationship, but also remember there are people with much more diverse life experience than you could ever possibly have and the role will not alwyas be so clearly defined. There are staff members in the US with doctoral degrees and 25 years experience in ministry. Many seminaries give precious little time to pastoral formation, while the laity are immersing themselves in it. To simply say "I'm the dad and I say so" is recipe for disastrous results (I've seen it happen all too frequently - a hot-headed priest thinks he knows everything because he had oil smeared on his hands and he burns every bridge in sight). By the way, my dad died last month, so we aren't really speaking... [/quote]

My condolences and prayers for your father. As for my oversimplification, yes I did mean to do so. Yes you are going to come across a wide variety of personalities and a wide variety of backgrounds and experience regardless of your future vocation and profession. Quite possibly, you will have a few people much more experienced than you working as subordinates. Yes, there is a need for cool, collected management with some experience, and sadly, the best way to learn how to manage is to do it. Yes, I agree that a hothead for a priest is a walking disaster, and that is usually based on personal arrogance as opposed to paternal confidence.

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1300487' date='Jun 24 2007, 09:50 AM']Also, remember a parish is also a civil corporation with a budget of, in some cases, well over $1 million. Am I really trained and competent to administer that budget?[/quote]

Well, picking up working knowledge in accounting and budgeting these days is useful regardless of your vocation. Sadly, I've seen engineers nearly tank the businesses they work for by not thinking of the bottom line. Even so, in every parish I have dealt with, you are not without allies who are often very experienced at this sort of thing.

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1300487' date='Jun 24 2007, 09:50 AM']In terms of multicultural concerns, I'm not worried about bilingual Masses. I'm concerned about pastoring a flock made up of an old German parish merged with a Hispanic community, one dying and one just beginning to thrive. I worry about being able to minister to a dying way of life while a new way of life is taking root.[/quote]

You wouldn't happen to be talking about my old home parish? It's tough, and I really did mean that you can only give what you can. While the Germans may be saddened, frustrated, and even angry at losing their hold, as long as you don't betray them while slavishly appeasing your Hispanic sheep at every turn, the good majority of them will accept the changes. Sadly, I've seen the Germans and Italians utterly abandoned when the new priest came in. I've also seen the Hispanics marginalized to almost nothing in another parish.

In all, these are challenges, but having a degree in dealing with all of them doesn't guarantee success in any of them. I will pray for your discernment one way or the other, according to His will.

[Era Might]

Are you ready to proclaim and die for the truth as the Church understands it and save souls?

That is what you need to be a Priest. Everything else is secondary. Our Lord didn't ask the Apostles (all Jews) if they understood the Gentiles, he told them to take the Gospel to the ends of the earth. They faced cultural problems between Gentiles and Jews, but they learned as they went.

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1300571' date='Jun 24 2007, 02:02 PM']Are you ready to proclaim and die for the truth as the Church understands it and save souls?

That is what you need to be a Priest. Everything else is secondary. Our Lord didn't ask the Apostles (all Jews) if they understood the Gentiles, he told them to take the Gospel to the ends of the earth. They faced cultural problems between Gentiles and Jews, but they learned as they went.[/quote]

Good point, but I would say that proclaiming and dying for the Gospel of Christ is something ALL Christians should be willing to do - not just priests. What sets a priest apart in that respect?