Your Thoughts As Catholics

[dairygirl4u2c]

so what about the experience invalidates jesus christ, especially as indicated in the bible? many people verify that jesus exists, but next to no one denies it. many say it does not necessarily matter if you believe, true. i realize this is blasphemous to modern christianity, but again, what in the bible says you have to necessarily believe? the bible says we are saved through him but does not say you have to believe. the bible does not say if you are not a christian you will be condemned.

i'd argue the same points about the CC, how the evidence for it could go either way, and that this is just another peice of circumstancial evidence.

please provide the proof texts you think are indicative from the bible.

[dairygirl4u2c]

as per the link provided by budge.
the bible says those who reject jesus have issues. john three sixteen ish says that condemnation is when you reject because your ways are wicked. not because you didn't know better etc.
the experiences only say sin is often not what we think it is, not that it doesn't exist.
the experience give hellish experiences to some.

it seems that the link is just another example of someone not liking something that conflicts with their personal theology. they quote vaguely associated verses from the bible. they point out the being of light verse, but that could be applied to anything, even the experience that Paul had, or at any rate legitimate experiences. it seems if there was something seriously wrong with the experiences, that they would have found better biblical evidence for it and stated it. so, that's why i make the challenge to others who are afraid of this.

it seems people are simply afraid to trust in it becaus eof uncertainty, not because of anything definitive. more out of fear than anything else. which isn't altogether wrong but not a substantial reason to me. enough not to trust completely, but not enough to not give it notable credence.

Edited June 20, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[Paddington]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1298799' date='Jun 20 2007, 02:57 AM']but again, what in the bible says you have to necessarily believe? the bible says we are saved through him but does not say you have to believe. the bible does not say if you are not a christian you will be condemned.[/quote]

(English Standard Version) John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, [i]but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. [/i]

Just throwing that out there.

[Budge]

[quote]it seems people are simply afraid to trust in it becaus eof uncertainty, not because of anything definitive. more out of fear than anything else. which isn't altogether wrong but not a substantial reason to me. enough not to trust completely, but not enough to not give it notable credence.[/quote]

Christians are supposed to TEST spirits yes or no?

[HollyDolly]

[quote name='Budge' post='1298869' date='Jun 20 2007, 09:22 AM']Christians are supposed to TEST spirits yes or no?[/quote]

Yes I suppose we are to test spirits. There are many people who have died and may at the last accept Jesus as saviour.
Only Jesus knows who is in Heaven or Hell,who is saved and who is not.

[dairygirl4u2c]

sure we are suppose to test them. so it's okay to be skeptical, as i said. with that said, there are many good fruits to the experiences. people change their lives and spread their message.
i'm assuming you have another beef with the experience, and that's why i ask you to provide biblical proof that these are bad experiences.

paddington. you have done what most people do. i do realize that you were just throwing that out there, but i think it's a little one sided not to provide the whole passage that almost every fundamentalist does not see. (proving they are not so much fundamental to the bible as they are to status quo christianity)
[quote]For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f]that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not [b]condemned[/b], but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[g] 19This [b]is the condemnation[/b]: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."[/quote]
notice he goes on to define what condemnation is...

[Paddington]

DairyGirl,

Thanks a million.

Paddington

[Budge]

[quote]people change their lives and spread their message.[/quote]

What message do they spread?

Ive never heard of a NDE person, coming back and preaching the gospel and preaching ye must be saved...

most come back preaching the New Age message of universalism and "everyone" goes to heaven except the really really baddies.

[img]http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51K2S7YG6YL._SS500_.jpg[/img]

This book has an occult marker right on the front of it...

[dairygirl4u2c]

i think some do go too far. they say more than they really have a basis to say. that's for sure. some are hoaxes definitely.

the expereinces show that if you live poorly you will receive poorly. hell experiences. so, i think they do say you must be saved.
but i think it's important to define what you mean by saved and what exactly you think the gosple is.

everyone seems to have a different answer. but i think even if you define it as if you trust in jesus you will be saved, that's not contradictory with the messages. many come back and convert to christianity. some don't. everyone has different reasons, and only God can know them, why they are rejecting. if it's because their ways are evil, they will be condemned to live in hell. that's in the messages. you reap what you sow.
from what i can see, some might not experience God. but even if they all do, all we can say is that for some it's gonna be good, and for some it's gonna smell of elderberries.

i do see jesus did say to go and spread the gosple. if you define the gospel as if you trust in jesus then i can see your hesitation as they don't come back saying that, all the time. but a lot of times they do. and they never contradict that. plus, really i think the heart of the gospel is much more than if you trust then you're cool.

[dairygirl4u2c]

well, i guess there are a significant many who say what you believe etc does not matter. if jesus said to spread the gospel, and you define it as trust in jesus, then it does matter what they are teaching to be concerned, true. even if you're not necessarily condemned for not believing, it does still matter.
i guess the bottomline is that i think the gosple is much more than if you believe you're cool. i have to say this given what these people say. i do wonder what basis they have and such but. i guess you have a point after thinking about it, at least as far as traditional bible christianity goes.

[dairygirl4u2c]

well, again though. they often say it don't matter what you believe. that's why i made my disclaimer in te last post. but, i think it depends on what they mean by that.
see, in the one sense, it doesn't matter if you believe in jesus, necessarily. to me. that's why i ask you to show otherwise. so in that sense, it doesn't matter what they are saying.
but it does matter, in that you should spread the gosple. so in that sense, it does matter what they are saying, at least to people who follow traditional bible chrisitanity. as opposed to newer, lost?, forms of bible christianity. given the different natures of their definitions of gosple.
i wouldn't be surprised if the popel themselves who say it don't matter really are informed enough to make that distinction. when they say one thing, they might overextend further than they should.

your persistence in disagreeing helped clarify for me budge. even if you didn't state it yourself. thanx

Edited June 25, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[Budge]

Im not following you...

[quote]see, in the one sense, it doesn't matter if you believe in jesus, necessarily. to me[/quote]

So it doesnt matter if youre a Christian?

Thats what you believe?

[dairygirl4u2c]

yeah i'll clarify. that was a lot of rambling thinking out loud.

i'm a lot like catholics in what you have to believe, in as far as those who do not believe the same as you are necessarily condemned. it depends mainly on whether they have heard, in order to reject. and personally i think it matters what they knew and their motives. that their motives are included in the judgment i think is verified by john 3:16, they rejected because their ways are evil.
the gosple to me, is that you should love God with all your heart mind soul etc, and your neighbor as yourself, and you're good to go, heaven exists, and you can always trust in Jesus, in his messages and always in everything. Jesus's main messages wasn't to trust in him for his own sake, but to trust in him, his message. if you lived his message, you don't necessarily need him in everything, necessarily. but everyone should have him, and the gosple in its entirety which includes him, should be preached.

they say "it doesn't matter what you believe". i think what they are saying needs to be discerned.

if they are saying that you don't have to necessarily be christian, necessarily, then i'm not opposed to that. think of the guy on the island who's never heard or someone with minimal knowldge etc of christianity.
if they are saying that jesus does not need to be ofor those who know better or otherwise does not matter at all to be trusted in or that none of the gosple should be spread, then i am opposed.

we have ot remember that they are not theologians, and can confuse a feeling that God looks at more than just if you have faith in Jesus, with a feeling that that trusting in Jesus does not matter at all.

if you can show that you absolutely necessarily have to be christian, even if you have never heard, or have good intention motives, then i'll change my views.

[misereremi]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1298208' date='Jun 19 2007, 04:11 AM']I know a guy here in Minnesota who was a contractor and had a near death experience where demons were dragging him down to hell. The doctors had proclaimed him dead in the hospital for about 2 minutes. While the demons were apparently clutching at him, he begged God for another chance. He said the demons were laughing at him saying his chances were over but he kept begging. The doctors were able to bring him back and he converted to Catholicism.

Now I can't speak to the authenticity of his experience. I can speak to how authentically he believed it. And really that is what matters. You get chills when you hear his story.[/quote]
I know someone who had a similar NDE only he was also taken to another place and shown Jesus being nailed to the cross; and a voice said "stop mocking him". This person was an atheist, and converted after this experience, and has been a Catholic for over 30 years now.

But I know another person who was recently dead for about 2-3 minutes after a suicide attempt. He told me he felt in complete peace and that he didn't believe in hell anymore. However, he's still feeling drawn to Catholicism now...

So about the other cases, it seems the devil was at work- that New Age stuff is ridiculous

[dairygirl4u2c]

i wonder what his basis is for saying hell does not exist. he's a perfect example. i'd really like to talk to him or people like him. they say four percent or somewhere around there of people have the experience so if anyoine here is one or has known one, they should ask them to come here.
i think that he might be saying that hell isn't what we think.... like fire and brimestone, or an all or nothing experience. there's degrees. or maybe he had the feeling of love and over extended to what he should not have ad said hell does not exist. or maybe hell is a possiblity, but people's inherent nature is such that someday everyone might convert, maybe. there's a lot of ifs.