The Anonymous Christian Theory

[Kirisutodo333]

[quote]I left the Catholic Church, knowing the Catholic Church is teaching the same universalism, and humanism and theosophy of the UU. That is why I mention it so much. Having been a Theosophist and pagan Humanist for years, I cannot be deluded by this stuff that is now being infiltrated into Christianity even--even evangelical churches.

No its not a badge of honor at all, I never said so.[/quote]

One mention is enough. Every time you bring it up, you imply it. That's the way it comes across.


[quote]Their beliefs have nothing to do with it.

That stuff happens inspite of the false beliefs.

Every human has a God-given conscience and unless it has been seared, some do show some goodness. This has nothing to do with the false spirits of Allah, Vishnu, Buddha, the goddess, etc. This is IN SPITE OF THEM.[/quote]

You don't really say much here at all except reaffirm my statement. Their beliefs are false, I agree also. Their Christ-like actions are done in spite of their beliefs. But that's not what's important. What's important is that they performed Christ-like actions because of God's grace. Those Christ-like actions are [i]Imitatio Cristi[/i] and are truths. So we identify Christ in their actions. You keep missing my point and that's why I call out your intellect. I mentioned nothing of Buddah or Allah. Don't really care too much for them. I only mentioned Christ in my statement, but you bring up those false Gods. It makes me wonder how much of the UU is still in you.

[quote]Basically you are so indoctrinated into works based salvation, that you think good works saves them. Look when I was a UU, social justice and works is a huge thing. The UU church teaches "DEEDS NOT CREEDS". But those works were as "filthy rags" they were not based in faith and they were based in our own motivations for self-glory.

I would suspect you have been adversely affected by the false teachings of the social justice gospel, which is all works centered ignoring the importance of faith.[/quote]

You suspect in error, once again. You keep using the old tactic of faith vs. works, but that's not the truth. In reality, it is faith vs. faith and works. You tend to leave that out so your position can appear as superior by denoting that Catholics do not have faith. Tsk, tsk, Budge. If you believe that the Catholic Church does not put importance on faith, then you need to re-read your catechism. For us Catholics, faith is a given.

[quote]Sure preach to them but they do not receive Christ in the nebulous New Age vague way the anon Christian preachers say they do.

Good works does not make someone a Christian if they do not accept or acknowledge Christ, that is a LIE.[/quote]

Can they acknowledge Christ through actions? Can they accept Christ through their unconscious action without realizing it?

[quote]Ill let God take care of that, but that doesnt mean preach false universalism.

The Catholic Church uses that one as an excuse, even though the gospel has now been taken to almost the entire world, to preach these false things.

This is also an "OUT" clause and I think one reason that Catholics do not preach openly like evnagelicals and Christians. Ie: Why street preach if you believe if someone is "good" theyll naturally go to heaven or they can have "christ" without even knowing or believing or acknowledging Him?[/quote]

Let God take care of it? That's pretty weak Budge even for you. Wow, you're like a broken record with this answer. No merit of truth anywhere to be found.

[quote]CHRIST'S VIRTUES IN [u]OTHER RELIGIONS[/u]?



With that line, Im sorry, youve basically have said the UNVERSALISM 101 creed....

I am correct about the fact that Catholics have gone the same EXACT way as the UUs.

Im sorry but with that one you do not follow Jesus Christ of the Bible--Yeshua, but the so called cosmic christ, the antichrist where all religions will come together as one, to usher in the antichrist in false unity.[/quote]

I've already explained myself to this statement. There is no "all religions will come together". That's absurd. And the fact that even when you're boldly told to your face that religious relativism is a no no in the Catholic Church, you still spew out this garbage like your mind has been brainwashed by the whole Christians vs. the world mentality. And that's why you have little to no credibility here.

[quote]YES IT DOES>

You believe that Christ works via other religions.

In my book that is a TOTAL RELIGIOUS RELATIVIST!

{oh and the comments about my lack of education etc, I notice how universalists and other christ rejecters always bring that up, as their claims of status of worldly prestige and education matter when it comes to the things of God}[/quote]

Wrong again. I believe there are certain truths that belong to Christ that can be found in other religions.

Your book? There is not an ounce of credibility in your book. So it's basically worthless to me. Education and knowledge does matter when it comes to God. I mean...look at yourself. If you were smart, you'd be Catholic. That says it all.

[Budge]

[quote]But that's not what's important. What's important is that they performed Christ-like actions because of God's grace. Those Christ-like actions are Imitatio Cristi and are truths. So we identify Christ in their actions.[/quote]

This has nothing to do with their false religions as I said. You see their false religions as a source of God's grace which is where me and you definitely part ways.
[quote]If you believe that the Catholic Church does not put importance on faith, then you need to re-read your catechism. For us Catholics, faith is a given.[/quote]

What use is your faith if you dont even get the basics of the first commandment?

Ye shall have no other gods before me, doesnt mean saying look at all those "christian" buddhists and Hindus!

I wouldnt be surprised if you dabble in some other religious practice, maybe some Zen to go with your Mass. Would you be honest and admit it here?

[quote]Can they acknowledge Christ through actions? Can they accept Christ through their unconscious action without realizing it?[/quote]
[b][size=3]
NO[/size][/b]

There.

That's where we part ways.

By the statement above, you REJECT the importance of FAITH.

Is Faith really that much a given for a Catholic with a belief like that?
[quote]I've already explained myself to this statement. There is no "all religions will come together". That's absurd. And the fact that even when you're boldly told to your face that religious relativism is a no no in the Catholic Church, you still spew out this garbage like your mind has been brainwashed by the whole Christians vs. the world mentality. And that's why you have little to no credibility here.[/quote]

Who cares if they preach that religious relativism is a NO_NO when Assisi and meetings like that were the very definition of religious relativism.

Look at what they do, not what they say.

And yes a Chrsitian should be "brainwashed" to believe it is the Christians against the world.

There you contradict Jesus totally.

[b]Jhn 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you.[/b]

[quote]Wrong again. I believe there are certain truths that belong to Christ that can be found in other religions.[/quote]

Well youre wrong.

False religions were formed and inspired by Satan; you have been indoctrinated well by your Theosphical and Masonic Popes.
[quote]If you were smart, you'd be Catholic. That says it all.[/quote]

Just a slogan on youre part, and yes smart people can be deluded.
[b]
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became geniuses,[/b]

Its always interesting to me how Catholics will praise their superior brains, intellects or college degrees when doing apologetics debate...

In fact I believe being smart can be something that in a way can lead a person to more delusion. The UU was full of genius IQs.

Edited September 4, 2007 by Budge

[Kirisutodo333]

[quote]This has nothing to do with their false religions as I said. You see their false religions as a source of God's grace which is where me and you definitely part ways.[/quote]

Yeah, this has nothing to do with my comment. I was pointing out "actions" not non-Christian religions as a whole. Next time, please address the comment and just don't blurt something out.

[quote]What use is your faith if you dont even get the basics of the first commandment?

Ye shall have no other gods before me, doesnt mean saying look at all those "christian" buddhists and Hindus!

I wouldnt be surprised if you dabble in some other religious practice, maybe some Zen to go with your Mass. Would you be honest and admit it here?[/quote]

I'll admit whatever you want me to admit. And I've really don't care too much for other religions, because they are well...man made. I do like Korean cinema...it's off the chain. Japanese samurai movies are good too. And all those Protestant denominations are good for a laugh. I love comedy! The AC theory has nothing to do with worshiping idols but...of course, no big surprise here...to you it does. Say it ain't so....
[quote]NO

There.

That's where we part ways.

By the statement above, you REJECT the importance of FAITH.

Is Faith really that much a given for a Catholic with a belief like that?[/quote]

You reject Christ period.

[quote]Who cares if they preach that religious relativism is a NO_NO when Assisi and meetings like that were the very definition of religious relativism.

Look at what they do, not what they say.

And yes a Chrsitian should be "brainwashed" to believe it is the Christians against the world.

There you contradict Jesus totally.

[b]Jhn 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you.[/b][/quote]

A Christian should be "brainwashed?" That explains everything Budge. You remind me of the movie "The Manchurian Candidate." BTW you're Scripture quote has nothing to do with your statement. Unless...you interpret it that way...that's it. Actually, I just realized, you and most other fundamental crazies do hate us Catholics. So Jesus, of course, was right. [b]If Budge hates us Catholics, ye know that Budge hated Jesus before us. [/b] How is that for an interpretation.

[quote]Well youre wrong.

False religions were formed and inspired by Satan[/quote]

Uh...like...Protestant? Fundamentalist Baptist? I love your own perceived authority: "Well you...are...wrong, blah, blah, blah..."

[quote]In fact I believe being smart can be something that in a way can lead a person to more delusion.[/quote]

So intellect can lead to delusion? Spoken like a true, closed-minded fundamentalist.

[quote]Catholics...superior brains, intellects...college degrees[/quote]

Now this is how to take stuff out of context!

[quote][b]Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became geniuses
[/b][/quote]
Did you become a fool after or before UU?

[quote]The UU was full of genius IQs[/quote]

So you felt left out? I'm sorry.

[Budge]

wow just a list of ad hominens.

You dont want to face facts that by believing that people can be Christians while in false religions without "knowing it" that this basically makes you a Universalist.

Well I tried. This error is huge here anyhow..the whole "unity of all religions" message is strong.

[Budge]

Easier to subscribe to Catholics apologetics technique #3 isnt it then to argue against what God's Word says.

From list of Catholic apologist techniques.

This one by far is the most popular.

[b]

* 3: Accusation of hate technique


Insist vehemently that your opponent is full of hate.
It is always advisable to paint your opponent as hateful.
This technique should always contain a reference,
to your extreme caringness and the limitless bounds of your great humility.[/b]

[T-Bone _]

From list of Budginity apologist techniques:

#456: When it is clear that you cannot debate, trot out a fictional list of "Catholic apologist techniques" that your friends made up.

[Budge]

T-Bone I took you for a Trad, guess maybe youre not.

Do you agree with your pal Kris here that Buddhist and Hindus can be "Christians" {anonymous Christians} without KNOWING IT?

YES or NO?

Edited September 6, 2007 by Budge

[Kirisutodo333]

[quote name='Budge' post='1379174' date='Sep 5 2007, 11:00 PM']T-Bone I took you for a Trad, guess maybe youre not.

Do you agree with your pal Kris here that Buddhist and Hindus can be "Christians" {anonymous Christians} without KNOWING IT?

YES or NO?[/quote]

Now T-Bone, let me re-phrase the question a little more honestly. Would you consider that Buddhist and Hindus might be doing Christ-like actions as influenced by their religion (i.e.: feeding the poor, providing for the homeless, loving thy neighbor) which can be considered a "Christian truth" in their religion, not a Buddhist truth but a Christian truth. Can you identify Christian virtues in other religions and can we as the Church show other religions the small truths they hold and how they point to the "real" truth of Christianity?

Kiris

[Budge]

How does Vishnu, Buddha, Shiva, Zoraster, Allah influence someone to be "good"?

"Christian truths" in Buddhism and Hinduism and Satanic false religions??? You got to be kidding me...

Talk about Jesuit Casuistry taken to a UNIVERSALIST EXTREME!

[Budge]

God hates false religions, He doesnt work through them.

and if you loved Jesus and truly loved people even unbelievers you would want them to know Him rather then believing this load of hooey, that is going to lead MILLIONS TO HELL.

A man cant have two Masters...

Jesus preached that,

and basically YOURE PREACHING THE EXACT OPPOSITE.

That a man can be mastered by Buddha and or Shiva, and or name your false spirit, and JESUS at the same time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited September 6, 2007 by Budge

[N/A Gone]

Budge. Answer her question


[quote]Would you consider that Buddhist and Hindus might be doing Christ-like actions as influenced by their religion (i.e.: feeding the poor, providing for the homeless, loving thy neighbor) which can be considered a "Christian truth" in their religion, not a Buddhist truth but a Christian truth. Can you identify Christian virtues in other religions and can we as the Church show other religions the small truths they hold and how they point to the "real" truth of Christianity?[/quote]

On a side note. If there is a little boy in india that never hears the christian gospel. Can the Holy Spirit still work with him to bring him towards a relationship with the Divine? Can that child make a response based on the spirit in order to obtain a saving grace? Paul cites in Romans that

[quote]Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, i[b]nvisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made[/b]. So they are without excuse; 21for though they knew God, they did not honour him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their senseless minds were darkened.[/quote]

So this child in india, with the help of the spirit and the mark of the divine on creation can come to a knowledge of God that is important enough to attribute guilt, thus strong enough to invoke a saving grace. Do you agree or not?

Secondary side note. You believe that a person needs to make a mental acknowledgement of the name of jesus. But you do not see Baptism as essential for salvation. How does that work?

btw, cause I know you will turn back the question to me. The way the child is able to come to salvation without a sacrament in this case is something Augustine addressed when he wrote [quote]"Man is bound by the sacraments, God is not"[/quote] since this child has no knowledge of the sacraments he is not bound to them. I have even read some theology that says protestants, in not knowing the roll and importance of sacraments are envoked by the mercy of God in this way.

ok, that was alot of side talk.

[Budge]

[quote]Would you consider that Buddhist and Hindus might be doing Christ-like actions as influenced by their religion (i.e.: feeding the poor, providing for the homeless, loving thy neighbor) which can be considered a "Christian truth" in their religion, not a Buddhist truth but a Christian truth. Can you identify Christian virtues in other religions and can we as the Church show other religions the small truths they hold and how they point to the "real" truth of Christianity?[/quote]

NO.

Why do you ask? {because Ive personally been there}

When young and a pagan UU, I did lots of nice things. Not bragging but even my career was based on idealistic altrusim in wanting to "help people" and my career was dedicated to young people. If I had died during those years, I would have gone to hell. I did not know Jesus Christ and I had rejected the gospel...so didnt have the excuse of NOT knowing. {christian friends in college had witnessed to me}

heres the deal unbelievers like that who show some positive things, do NOT have seared consciences, they have a God-given conscience being put to some use. This has NOTHING to do with their false satanically based religion and to be frank folks who teach this nonsense are doing nothing to help the unbeliever into a wonderful life with Jesus Christ but leaving them in bondage.

I hate when Catholics use that verse as an OUT CLAUSE for their interfaith nonsense and universalism. It is not. It merely states that God will be the most Just Judge-- but What is the Christians job to tell unbelievers [i]oh youre a good nice person, Buddha, and Hinduism will do you fine, because Jesus will work via your religion,[/i] or Heres the gospel, youre a sinner in need a Savior like ME?

It just sounds like excuse making for Rome's universalism to me. A twisting of a verse that speaks of Gods mercy.

By the way when I meet unbelievers, and I have many loved non-Christians in my life, I can see a difference sometimes between ones who have non-seared consciences and those who are not at all open to the gospel, it may take time to plant the seeds and have them bloom...but it is something Ive noticed.

I really wonder about Catholics who are so invested in defending FALSE RELIGIONS but then I realized this is something you have been trained to do by your Popes.

For the newbies, remember Rome's interfaithism is the thing that woke me up at first and Got me out, I knew it was wrong from the day I walked out of the UU knowing Jesus was Lord.

[HS_Dad]

Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life" John 14:6.

The logical thing is to be skeptical of the anonymous Christian theory and to wish to share the Good News of Jesus Christ to all through missions and evangelism and through our love.

Leave the rest to God's mercy.

Clearly there are some non-Christians who display a lot of Christlike behaviour. However, too many use this as an excuse to give up on the duty of Christians to evangelize.

[N/A Gone]

I believe that is what is taught. We used to call it the "clear and opaque" theory. We "clearly" know that a christian is saved (loaded terms, but deal) and as they move farther from that center it became clouded and we did not know. But in the end it is not for us to know, it is for God's mercy. The reason we discuss it is to reconcile the theodicy view of an all-loving God condemning someone who did not know his son's name, but lived by the law written on his heart.

[Budge]

HS, Hmm it is exceptional to see a Catholic disagree with these Universalistic notions.

Maybe this is your "evangelical "side...

What is an evangelical Catholic anyhow?