The Anonymous Christian Theory

[Budge]

[quote]People could get killed for many things back then. This is 2007 and things are a wee bit different.[/quote]

Different?

Christians are still dying for the gospel now...

China, Middle East and elsewhere...

[Kirisutodo333]

[quote name='Budge' post='1298602' date='Jun 19 2007, 06:39 PM']You are contradicting yourself here.

Anyhow the idea of God being limited is a satanic rabbit trail.

God has revealed HImself in His Word, His nature, will and more.

God has all power and majesty.

Those who preach that God works via false religions, are universalists, they use the "God is not limited" line to delude.

Because they WANT people not to accept the Bible as Gods revelation to man, and they want people to GO after FALSE SOURCES.

Thats it in a nutshell.[/quote]

[quote]CS Lewis was wrong. There were Nazi guards who went home after a day of work at the concentration camp to hug their wives and play with their children. Ted Bundy was kind to his mother.[/quote]

This statement you made is kind of elementary in terms of critical thinking. When the Nazi's hugged their children, they were doing good, when they murdered Jews, they were committing evil. It's about the "action" and the "choice."

You know you come across someone like Budge and then you say to yourself, "no wonder America hates Christians more and more each day."

I am actually very familiar with Karl Rahner, who was by the way one of the most influential theologians of the 20th century. He was called in as an expert for the Vatican II council and was very influential in its decisions. For those fellow Catholics who are not familiar with him, I advise that you should get very familiar with him as he was the greatest influence on the Catholic Church in the 20th century. He dealt a very big blow to neo-scholasticism and is known for his famous concepts, including: "grace as the self-communication of God", "the supernatural existentiall", his famous Grand Axiom-the economic Trinity is the immanent Trinity and the immanent Trinity is the economic Trinity and of course, his "anonymous Christian theory." Some I agree with, some I have issues with. But they're all genius.

For someone to understand the concept of the anonymous Christian one must first start with Rahner's theological starting point which is "grace as the self-communication of God." Then after extensive reading of his works, you can begin to comprehend his AC concept.

Budge, you are in no way capable of judging his AC theory since you have no idea or have ever been exposed to his theology. So just move on to something else. And this goes for everyone else. Read his concepts, become familiarized with it and then discuss it.

I offer this article attached to familiarize yourself somewhat with the concept.

[url="http://www.ttc.edu.sg/csca/CS/2001-Apr/Norman%20Wong.pdf"]Essay on Anonymous Christian Theory[/url]

Paz en Cristo

Kiris

[Norseman82]

Budge,

What about Romans 2:14-15 ?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Kirisutodo333' post='1373556' date='Aug 29 2007, 01:20 PM']You know you come across someone like Budge and then you say to yourself, "no wonder America hates Christians more and more each day."[/quote]
Actually, I believe behavior only provides cheap justification for "hatred." I needn't behave badly to cross swords with non-Christians.

I have more important things in common with Budge than I have with a true non-Christian.

[Kirisutodo333]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1373589' date='Aug 29 2007, 02:55 PM']Actually, I believe behavior only provides cheap justification for "hatred." I needn't behave badly to cross swords with non-Christians.

I have more important things in common with Budge than I have with a true non-Christian.[/quote]

1. I didn't specify behavior.

2. What you believe and what is unfortunately on the surface of reality regarding America's views towards Christians, especially fundamental evangelicals are two different things. Budge's beliefs and attitude are a reflection of herself and it feeds this superficial monster of negativity towards Christianity created by the modern American press and culture.

[Budge]

[quote]This statement you made is kind of elementary in terms of critical thinking. When the Nazi's hugged their children, they were doing good, when they murdered Jews, they were committing evil. It's about the "action" and the "choice."[/quote]

Ah the whole Catholic halfsies thing, as if the good they showed their children or when they petted a dog or gave their mother flowers, made up for what they did when they were at "work".


"I was just following orders" That is the kind of "critical thinking" as yours above that has led to so much evil in the world.
[quote]You know you come across someone like Budge and then you say to yourself, "no wonder America hates Christians more and more each day."[/quote]

Im sorry if you hate me.

Really I do not know you enough to feel one way or another about you.

and since I have shared so little info about myself outside of what churches Ive been in,

it must be my message you have a problem with.

I meet people by the way who while not saved do not hate fundie Christians, they in fact will listen some I have befriended even, however I know with some, who are not searching for the truth, the gospel does anger and offend.
[quote]I am actually very familiar with Karl Rahner, who was by the way one of the most influential theologians of the 20th century. He was called in as an expert for the Vatican II council and was very influential in its decisions.[/quote]

I am not surprised given the universalistic tinge to Vatican 2, perhaps he helped write all that stuff in Nostra Aetate about Allah of Islam being God.

[quote]But they're all genius.[/quote]

Satan has a high IQ TOO, so genius doesnt always entail wisdom or following Gods Will.

I think Rahner with this Anonymous Christian stuff which has infiltrated neo-evangelicalism as well, has helped advance universalism and the false gospel of the antichrist. This is the OUT that those like Rick Warren and other false preachers use, when quibbling on national media to avoid saying "Jesus is the ONLY way."
[quote]Budge, you are in no way capable of judging his AC theory since you have no idea or have ever been exposed to his theology. So just move on to something else. And this goes for everyone else. Read his concepts, become familiarized with it and then discuss it.[/quote]

I can judge it, I compare it to scripture....

Its just someone else basically saying other religions and gods save...

its false. You forget I was UU for many years, all religions as many paths up the mountain top to "god" was what I used to believe.

NOT ANYMORE.

Sadly Mr. Rahner is preaching that same message.

[Kirisutodo333]

[quote]Ah the whole Catholic halfsies thing, as if the good they showed their children or when they petted a dog or gave their mother flowers, made up for what they did when they were at "work".
"I was just following orders" That is the kind of "critical thinking" as yours above that has led to so much evil in the world.[/quote]

You still don't get it, but I'm not surprised in any way. When somebody does good, it's good, when somebody does evil, it's evil, regardless of what type of person they are. How hard is that for you to understand?

[quote]Im sorry if you hate me.

Really I do not know you enough to feel one way or another about you.

and since I have shared so little info about myself outside of what churches Ive been in,

it must be my message you have a problem with.

I meet people by the way who while not saved do not hate fundie Christians, they in fact will listen some I have befriended even, however I know with some, who are not searching for the truth, the gospel does anger and offend.[/quote]

Um...now how did you get that I hate you from my statement? Baffling. Anyway Budge, don't flatter yourself. You are not worth hating.

[quote]I am not surprised given the universalistic tinge to Vatican 2, perhaps he helped write all that stuff in Nostra Aetate about Allah of Islam being God.[/quote]

Well excuse me for studying past theologians...it's that whole knowledge education thing. It's funny, you have no idea who Rahner is or what he wrote, yet you like to assume things with your simple mind.

[quote]Satan has a high IQ TOO, so genius doesnt always entail wisdom or following Gods Will.[/quote]

This is quite true. Still...come to think of it, Rahner had more genuine ideas in one day that you will ever have in a lifetime. It's okay Budge, Phatmass will always be here for you to receive your wonderful interpretations of Christianity.

[quote]I think Rahner with this Anonymous Christian stuff which has infiltrated neo-evangelicalism as well, has helped advance universalism and the false gospel of the antichrist. This is the OUT that those like Rick Warren and other false preachers use, when quibbling on national media to avoid saying "Jesus is the ONLY way."[/quote]

This statement right here is so ignorant that it plainly decrees that you have no idea what the AC concept is. Did you know that the Anonymous Christian concept DOES in fact state that Jesus is the only way. The anonymous Christian theory states that Jesus can be found in all religions, not that all religions are truth. Only that they hold certain truths that belong to Jesus. The AC theory states that ONLY in Christianity can these truths be fully realized.

But....you wouldn't know about that because, you've never studied Rahner and...you keep making statements about something your ignorant about.

[quote]I can judge it, I compare it to scripture....[/quote]

How can you compare something you don't know about to Scripture? As a matter of fact, how can you compare something you don't know about to something you don't know about? Question: Did the people from the Old Testament know Jesus? Were they saved?


[quote]Its just someone else basically saying other religions and gods save...

its false. You forget I was UU for many years, all religions as many paths up the mountain top to "god" was what I used to believe.

NOT ANYMORE.

Sadly Mr. Rahner is preaching that same message.[/quote]

Wow! Actually, Budge, neither Rahner nor the Anonymous Christian theory say any of that. Rahner actually states the opposite.

Here is what Rahner says regarding his AC theory:

[i]An intrinsic element in his Christian and Catholic beliefs is the conviction of faith that now at any rate Christianity is the unique and absolute religion founded by God through Christ and prescribed by him for all men; that is the way of salvation which God, of his salvific will, has created for all and made radically binding for all to follow. We cannot adopt that attitude of religious relativism which regards all religions as on the whole equally justifiable, and the confusion and disorder among them as relatively unimportant-[b]Rahner, Theological Investigations Vol 10[/b][/i]

But....since you don't know what you are talking about and never studied Rahner, have no clue about his theology, you still make the same ignorant, disrespectful and blatantly close minded assumption that you know what you're talking about.

Love ya

Paz en Cristo

Kiris

[jeffpugh]

Wow, a lot of old Budge threads just got resurrected... or half so... like zombies...

[Budge]

I didnt ressurect my old threads, Winchester bumped a bunch of them up.

Some Im glad he did, I had missed response on one from some weeks ago.
[quote]You still don't get it, but I'm not surprised in any way. When somebody does good, it's good, when somebody does evil, it's evil, regardless of what type of person they are. How hard is that for you to understand?[/quote]

Its not divided that way. If you are living in darkness and a child of Satan, and definitely someone participating in the Holocaust, was one, there is no good there.

This where good "works" theology will lead to confusion.

Ted Bundy had people always remark on how friendly and polite he was. I am sure he was friendly and polite even as he got the rope and handcuffs out to grab his next female victim.

Sociopaths {by the way in past career I worked with troubled youth some who were diagnosed bonfide sociopaths} have the special element of smiling and being outwardly kind while committing the most dastardly deeds or lying through their teeth.

Evil can have a very friendly face. What do you think all the angel of light warnings in the Bible are about?
[quote]This statement right here is so ignorant that it plainly decrees that you have no idea what the AC concept is. Did you know that the Anonymous Christian concept DOES in fact state that Jesus is the only way. [b]The anonymous Christian theory states that Jesus can be found in all religions, not that all religions are truth.[/b] Only that they hold certain truths that belong to Jesus. The AC theory states that ONLY in Christianity can these truths be fully realized.[/quote]

Sure there is a nuance between the universalists and the anon Christian theory.

I already knew this, this is a special twist to confuse people.

The Popes adhere to this, Ive written an essay about JPII where he makes clear he accepts this, ie JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY, but here is the TWIST, "god" supposely works via OTHER RELIGIONS.

Sorry, I do not believe that Jesus can be found in all religions especially as I was a dabbler in several while in the UU. {UUs combine many members of Mystery Babylon}

[url="http://p094.ezboard.com/The-Anonymous-Christian-Theory/fcatholicreformationfrm22.showMessage?topicID=9399.topic"]MY COMMENTS ON ANONYMOUS CHRISTIAN THEORY[/url]

[quote]How can you compare something you don't know about to Scripture? As a matter of fact, how can you compare something you don't know about to something you don't know about? Question: Did the people from the Old Testament know Jesus? Were they saved?[/quote]

If Jesus works via all religions, why should you get upset if someone goes and picks from the religious smorgasborg. I imagine if you have a child and taught them this, when they got to university they could dabble in Buddhism and Hinduism, thinking well I can find Jesus there too? Curiously would you be upset or not?
[quote]We cannot adopt that attitude of religious relativism which regards all religions as on the whole equally justifiable, and the confusion and disorder among them as relatively unimportant-Rahner, Theological Investigations Vol 10[/quote]

So Rahner thinks Christianity is the BEST OPTION....so what? He is still wrong to believe that "god" works via false religions.

[jeffpugh]

Where in my post did it say that I blamed you of the threads being resurrected? Tell me. Please.

[Norseman82]

Take a number, Sacred Music Man - I'm still awaiting for her to answer to my question on the Romans quote!

[Kirisutodo333]

[quote]Its not divided that way. If you are living in darkness and a child of Satan, and definitely someone participating in the Holocaust, was one, there is no good there.

This where good "works" theology will lead to confusion.

Ted Bundy had people always remark on how friendly and polite he was. I am sure he was friendly and polite even as he got the rope and handcuffs out to grab his next female victim.

Sociopaths {by the way in past career I worked with troubled youth some who were diagnosed bonfide sociopaths} have the special element of smiling and being outwardly kind while committing the most dastardly deeds or lying through their teeth.

Evil can have a very friendly face. What do you think all the angel of light warnings in the Bible are about?[/quote]

Good and evil are necessarily tied to choice which then leads to action which then influences the degree of nature. A man can be evil, but that does not limit him from doing good things or being redeemed. Darth Vader was evil and killed people, but in the end he committed a good act, which was to save his son and sacrifice himself. Was that action that Vader committed evil just because he was an evil character and committed grave sins? You've so lost on this one. You just keep repeating the same garbage.


[quote]Sure there is a nuance between the universalists and the anon Christian theory.

I already knew this, this is a special twist to confuse people.

The Popes adhere to this, Ive written an essay about JPII where he makes clear he accepts this, ie JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY, but here is the TWIST, "god" supposely works via OTHER RELIGIONS.

Sorry, I do not believe that Jesus can be found in all religions especially as I was a dabbler in several while in the UU. {UUs combine many members of Mystery Babylon}[/quote]

I'm so sick and tired of listening to your rant of UU. I don't care what you did. It's not a badge of honor that you wasted your time in some messed up organization. (Though it explains some things about you but anyway...) It's an old story, you and the UU. Please lay it to rest.

Anyway, if Jesus says "take care of the poor, feed the hungry" and somebody from another religion is feeding the poor and taking care of the hungry, is that not a Christian virtue? Is that not Christ working through their beliefs? Is that not Christ bringing them closer to him? We are all trying to imitate Christ. That is the ultimate goal of the Christian, to be a better Christian every day. Should not the people of other religions be entitled to receive Christ? What about the people who have never heard of Christ or have been exposed to the gospel. How do they get saved? Oh...they don't according to you. Because your Christ only chooses special people in this world like yourself correct? If you can't find Christ's virtue in other religions, then you are looking with Eyes Wide Shut.

[quote]If Jesus works via all religions, why should you get upset if someone goes and picks from the religious smorgasborg. I imagine if you have a child and taught them this, when they got to university they could dabble in Buddhism and Hinduism, thinking well I can find Jesus there too? Curiously would you be upset or not?[/quote]

Clearly, once again (out of the many "agains" you deliver) you are ignorant to the theory. You apparently failed to read or understand that the AC does not condone religious relativism. But that statement was all you had in your arsenal. You are incapable of comprehending, analyzing and critically thinking on certain theological concepts. Your knowledge and lack of education is limited. How do I know this? Because I blatantly describe how religious relativism is false and in no way mirrors the anonymous christian theory, yet you come back and try to throw in my face that the AC theory is all about religious relativism. Honestly, how can I logically take you serious? When you simply do not have the aptitude to comprehend theological or philosophical concepts. Do yourself a favor, go back to the UU.

[quote]So Rahner thinks Christianity is the BEST OPTION....so what? He is still wrong to believe that "god" works via false religions.[/quote]

ahem..ahem...not BEST OPTION but ONLY OPTION. Big...BIG difference. Oh but you failed to put that in your little quote, oh no...let me remind you:
[b]
Christianity is the unique and absolute religion founded by God through Christ and prescribed by him for all men-Rahner. [/b]

"Unique" and "absolute" does not mean "best option." Well...maybe to you...I mean you were in the UU.

Love ya

Paz en Cristo

Rey

[Kirisutodo333]

[quote]Its not divided that way. If you are living in darkness and a child of Satan, and definitely someone participating in the Holocaust, was one, there is no good there.

This where good "works" theology will lead to confusion.

Ted Bundy had people always remark on how friendly and polite he was. I am sure he was friendly and polite even as he got the rope and handcuffs out to grab his next female victim.

Sociopaths {by the way in past career I worked with troubled youth some who were diagnosed bonfide sociopaths} have the special element of smiling and being outwardly kind while committing the most dastardly deeds or lying through their teeth.

Evil can have a very friendly face. What do you think all the angel of light warnings in the Bible are about?[/quote]

Good and evil are necessarily tied to choice which then leads to action which then influences the degree of nature. A man can be evil, but that does not limit him from doing good things or being redeemed. Darth Vader was evil and killed people, but in the end he committed a good act, which was to save his son and sacrifice himself. Was that action that Vader committed evil just because he was an evil character and committed grave sins? You've so lost on this one. You just keep repeating the same garbage.


[quote]Sure there is a nuance between the universalists and the anon Christian theory.

I already knew this, this is a special twist to confuse people.

The Popes adhere to this, Ive written an essay about JPII where he makes clear he accepts this, ie JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY, but here is the TWIST, "god" supposely works via OTHER RELIGIONS.

Sorry, I do not believe that Jesus can be found in all religions especially as I was a dabbler in several while in the UU. {UUs combine many members of Mystery Babylon}[/quote]

I'm so sick and tired of listening to your rant of UU. I don't care what you did. It's not a badge of honor that you wasted your time in some messed up organization. (Though it explains some things about you but anyway...) It's an old story, you and the UU. Please lay it to rest.

Anyway, if Jesus says "take care of the poor, feed the hungry" and somebody from another religion is feeding the poor and taking care of the hungry, is that not a Christian virtue? Is that not Christ working through their beliefs? Is that not Christ bringing them closer to Christianity? We are all trying to imitate Christ. That is the ultimate goal of the Christian, to be a better Christian every day. Should not the people of other religions be entitled to receive Christ? What about the people who have never heard of Christ or have been exposed to the gospel. How do they get saved? Oh...they don't according to you. Because your Christ only chooses special people in this world like yourself correct? If you can't find Christ's virtue in other religions, then you are looking with Eyes Wide Shut.

[quote]If Jesus works via all religions, why should you get upset if someone goes and picks from the religious smorgasborg. I imagine if you have a child and taught them this, when they got to university they could dabble in Buddhism and Hinduism, thinking well I can find Jesus there too? Curiously would you be upset or not?[/quote]

Clearly, once again (out of the many "agains" you deliver) you are ignorant to the theory. You apparently failed to read or understand that the AC does not condone religious relativism. But that statement was all you had in your arsenal. You are incapable of comprehending, analyzing and critically thinking on certain theological concepts. Your knowledge and lack of education is limited. How do I know this? Because I blatantly describe how religious relativism is false and in no way mirrors the anonymous christian theory, yet you come back and try to throw in my face that the AC theory is all about religious relativism. Honestly, how can I logically take you serious? When you simply do not have the aptitude to comprehend theological or philosophical concepts. Do yourself a favor, go back to the UU.

[quote]So Rahner thinks Christianity is the BEST OPTION....so what? He is still wrong to believe that "god" works via false religions.[/quote]

ahem..ahem...not BEST OPTION but ONLY OPTION. Big...BIG difference. Oh but you failed to put that in your little quote, oh no...let me remind you:
[b]
Christianity is the unique and absolute religion founded by God through Christ and prescribed by him for all men-Rahner. [/b]

"Unique" and "absolute" does not mean "best option." Well...maybe to you...I mean you were in the UU.

Love ya

Paz en Cristo

Rey

[Budge]

[quote]I'm so sick and tired of listening to your rant of UU. I don't care what you did. It's not a badge of honor that you wasted your time in some messed up organization. (Though it explains some things about you but anyway...) It's an old story, you and the UU. Please lay it to rest.[/quote]

I left the Catholic Church, knowing the Catholic Church is teaching the same universalism, and humanism and theosophy of the UU. That is why I mention it so much. Having been a Theosophist and pagan Humanist for years, I cannot be deluded by this stuff that is now being infiltrated into Christianity even--even evangelical churches.

No its not a badge of honor at all, I never said so.
[quote]Anyway, if Jesus says "take care of the poor, feed the hungry" and somebody from another religion is feeding the poor and taking care of the hungry, is that not a Christian virtue? Is that not Christ working through their beliefs?[/quote]

Their beliefs have nothing to do with it.

That stuff happens inspite of the false beliefs.

Every human has a God-given conscience and unless it has been seared, some do show some goodness. This has nothing to do with the false spirits of Allah, Vishnu, Buddha, the goddess, etc. This is IN SPITE OF THEM.
[quote]Is that not Christ bringing them closer to Christianity? We are all trying to imitate Christ. That is the ultimate goal of the Christian, to be a better Christian every day.[/quote]

Basically you are so indoctrinated into works based salvation, that you think good works saves them. Look when I was a UU, social justice and works is a huge thing. The UU church teaches "DEEDS NOT CREEDS". But those works were as "filthy rags" they were not based in faith and they were based in our own motivations for self-glory.

I would suspect you have been adversely affected by the false teachings of the social justice gospel, which is all works centered ignoring the importance of faith.
[quote]Should not the people of other religions be entitled to receive Christ?[/quote]

Sure preach to them but they do not receive Christ in the nebulous New Age vague way the anon Christian preachers say they do.

Good works does not make someone a Christian if they do not accept or acknowledge Christ, that is a LIE.


[quote]What about the people who have never heard of Christ or have been exposed to the gospel. How do they get saved? Oh...they don't according to you.[/quote]

Ill let God take care of that, but that doesnt mean preach false universalism.

The Catholic Church uses that one as an excuse, even though the gospel has now been taken to almost the entire world, to preach these false things.

This is also an "OUT" clause and I think one reason that Catholics do not preach openly like evnagelicals and Christians. Ie: Why street preach if you believe if someone is "good" theyll naturally go to heaven or they can have "christ" without even knowing or believing or acknowledging Him?
[quote]Because your Christ only chooses special people in this world like yourself correct? [font="Arial Black"]If you can't find Christ's virtue in other religions, [/font]then you are looking with Eyes Wide Shut.[/quote]

CHRIST'S VIRTUES IN [u]OTHER RELIGIONS[/u]?



With that line, Im sorry, youve basically have said the UNVERSALISM 101 creed....

I am correct about the fact that Catholics have gone the same EXACT way as the UUs.

Im sorry but with that one you do not follow Jesus Christ of the Bible--Yeshua, but the so called cosmic christ, the antichrist where all religions will come together as one, to usher in the antichrist in false unity.
[quote]Clearly, once again (out of the many "agains" you deliver) you are ignorant to the theory. You apparently failed to read or understand that the AC does not condone religious relativism.[/quote]

YES IT DOES>

You believe that Christ works via other religions.

In my book that is a TOTAL RELIGIOUS RELATIVIST!

{oh and the comments about my lack of education etc, I notice how universalists and other christ rejecters always bring that up, as their claims of status of worldly prestige and education matter when it comes to the things of God}

[Budge]

bump