Fidei Defensor Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 Quick example - What about those people who are presented with the Word but do not respond and ignore it? It is my understanding that you believe that all that is needed is presenting the Word, and hearts will be turned. I'm not denying that can happen. God works wonders. But we have the more realistic view that God can also work in MANY ways to bring people to himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 [quote name='journeyman' post='1298645' date='Jun 19 2007, 05:20 PM']If I remember my OT, God made promises to Ishmael and his mother . . . in addition to the promises to Abram/Abraham[/quote] The promises made to Ishmael and his mother were not fulfilled by the Qur'an. Mohammad is not a true prophet, and Islam is a false religion. Catholics must not embrace the heresy of theological indifferentism in order to satisfy modern "politically correct" sensibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1300224' date='Jun 23 2007, 02:43 PM']The promises made to Ishmael and his mother were not fulfilled by the Qur'an. Mohammad is not a true prophet, and Islam is a false religion. Catholics must not embrace the heresy of theological indifferentism in order to satisfy modern "politically correct" sensibilities.[/quote] yeap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted June 24, 2007 Author Share Posted June 24, 2007 [quote]However, those people who are unfortunate enough to believe in a false religion may not be open to hearing God's word.[/quote]IF they are not open, then the parable of the sower applies, that in other words is ROCKY SOIL. [quote] However, a very select few beliefs in their religion may help to open them to God. God uses these things so that when they hear the Word, they can come to believe it, like you did, and ABANDON their false religions.[/quote] [u]Nothing[/u] in UUism had anything to do with me becoming a Christian. In fact that took hearing the gospel, Christian prayers I didnt know about til later, and the Holy Spirit. [quote] However, God is more powerful. He can pull people away from evil and falsehoods by introducing Truth.[/quote]But this is NOT done via false religions, this is where me and you seem to part ways. [quote] However, God can use these falsehoods to help people become OPEN so they can finally see that what they believe is FALSE and then they can leave the evil behind.[/quote] The falsehoods are not used, it happens IN SPITE OF THEM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 [quote name='Budge' post='1300502' date='Jun 24 2007, 09:52 AM']The falsehoods are not used, it happens IN SPITE OF THEM.[/quote] I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 [quote name='Budge' post='1300502' date='Jun 24 2007, 08:52 AM']IF they are not open, then the parable of the sower applies, that in other words is ROCKY SOIL. But this is NOT done via false religions, this is where me and you seem to part ways.[/quote] Okay, more clarification. I agree, the true purposes of false religions are not to bring people to Jesus, obviously. False religions come from the devil. But do you believe that God would abandon those who have been trapped by false religions? Or rather, would be bring people out of them? Where we differ is that Catholics believe that God can work in many ways to do that, which include using the very few truths that a religion may have in order to get the believers to see that the rest of what they believe is false. I understand your contempt for false religions, though. It's completely justified. They twist the truth and mock God. However, UU is not your usual false religion. We're talking more about Hinduism, Judaism, Islam and the traditional false relgions. Perhaps with a religion like UU, hearing the truth was enough to break the spell of the lies. Here is an example - Most religions believe in a god of some kind. That is a truth they have, that God exists. Their view of God may be incorrect, but the actual belief in a divine being is correct. Also, many religions believe in a savior of some kind. That's also a correct belief. There is a savior. They just have the wrong one, one that doesn't exist. If we start there as a talking point, we can eventually show them that Jesus is the real savior, and that their's is just a myth. Because Jesus was a real person, he really existed in time and space. Their's is just a story. We aren't saying they're correct in believing about their savior, just that they are correct about a savior existing. But we believe in the true one, and work to show them why Jesus is the true savior. It's not about saying "well, they believe in a savior, that's better than nothing." Rather, we convince them, without condemning them and turning them off to Jesus, that instead of their mythological savior, they should believe in Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
123 Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 Wow, Budge, you have gone beyond not knowing, to wanting not to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 I agree... yet it would seem to be she has always been so closed to truth.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted June 25, 2007 Author Share Posted June 25, 2007 [quote]Here is an example - Most religions believe in a god of some kind. That is a truth they have, that God exists. Their view of God may be incorrect, but the actual belief in a divine being is correct.[/quote] They follow false "god"s, and Im sorry they dont merely "misunderstand" "god", they are under the sway of a false spirit. For a true covnersion you do not just have them "rename" things, you must have them break away from their false religion including the false spirit running the show and come to the one true God. Gloria Iesus, not wanting to know what? Im the one here against universalism...does that mean youre for it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 (edited) [quote name='Budge' post='1300987' date='Jun 24 2007, 09:38 PM']They follow false "god"s, and Im sorry they dont merely "misunderstand" "god", they are under the sway of a false spirit. For a true covnersion you do not just have them "rename" things, you must have them break away from their false religion including the false spirit running the show and come to the one true God.[/quote] Again, we don't disagree here. What we disagree about is you seem to believe that shouting at non-believers and telling them they're wrong will somehow get them to believe in Jesus. We prefer to take a more charitable method and actually bring them to the truth by helping them understand the true God. I think you'll find that many more people become true believers when you sit and actually discuss things they know about rather than shoving bible verses in their faces and telling them they'll go to hell. Not only will they laugh at you, but if they actually for some reason "convert" out of fear of hell, that's for the wrong reason anyway. They don't want to love Jesus, they just want to not go to hell. I believe that's our only sticking point. Do you or do you not agree that the best method to bring about true conversion is to talk things out? Or do you prefer blunt truth? I'm not saying that being blunt doesn't have it's advantages sometimes, but human nature tends to not like to be told their wrong flat out, rather, it's better to discuss, [b]while not giving in to falsehoods[/b] in order to truly understand a person and to actually help them see why Jesus is the true savior. Edited June 25, 2007 by fidei defensor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted June 25, 2007 Author Share Posted June 25, 2007 [quote]What we disagree about is you seem to believe that shouting at non-believers and telling them they're wrong will somehow get them to believe in Jesus. We prefer to take a more charitable method and actually bring them to the truth by helping them understand the true God.[/quote]What is wrong with telling nonbeleivers the truth? who said one had to shout? I suppose the apostles when they got beaten and jailed, deserved it for not helping those unbeleivers "understand" in a "nice" way. Sheesh. [quote] I think you'll find that many more people become true believers when you sit and actually [b]discuss things they know about [/b]rather than shoving bible verses in their faces and telling them they'll go to hell. Not only will they laugh at you, but if they actually for some reason "convert" out of fear of hell, that's for the wrong reason anyway. They don't want to love Jesus, they just want to not go to hell.[/quote] What is wrong with teaching people something new? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 The truth will make you free, but the truth is not a series of abstract propositions; instead, it is the Son of God made man. That said, [i]if[/i] a Muslim is saved it is not because he is a follower of the religion founded by Mohammad, but in spite of his practice of that false religion. Christ is the only savior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathoholic_anonymous Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 [quote name='Budge' post='1299929' date='Jun 22 2007, 11:00 PM']Sure..thats still living in it... So a pack of lies mixed with one or two "truths leads people to God? Hey if that works, why not become a Buddhist, Hindu, or Muslim or Wiccan?, since God uses false religions to lead people to Jesus, you cant lose![/quote] That is NOT what Catholicism teaches, as you have been told many times. Christianity isn't just one in a series of options. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Jesus is that truth in all its fullness. But God, unlike you, is not restricted by the parameters of thought or even faith. It is possible for Him to reveal His mercy to a non-Christian. We don't believe that this happens to every non-Christian. We don't believe that every single person is heavenbound. (You know this one - you criticise us for not accepting your 'once saved, always saved' theory often enough.) But we do believe that it is a [i]possibility[/i]. In other discussions on this subject, we have talked to you about the 'righteous pagan' whom Paul mentions as support for this idea. I remember one particular thread where you ignored and ignored and ignored all the people who brought that up, just because it doesn't happen to suit the agenda you are trying to push. [quote name='Budge' post='1299929' date='Jun 22 2007, 11:00 PM']I know half of you would flip out if I told you that I have been blessed with knowing Gods word is true 100%.[/quote] Catholicism teaches that the Bible is the inspired and infallible word of God. We can all accept that. What we don't accept is that you are its supreme interpreter. Your allegedly 'Biblical' interpretation of the Bible (which differs substantially from the interpretations of other 'Bible Christians') is not the interpretation that Christians have followed from the earliest times. I accept the Bible. I don't accept Budgean theology. Unfortunately, you see them as one and the same. As for certainty, Catholicism teaches absolutes. It also teaches that to know these absolutes, a large amount of trust and humility are involved. That's where we part company. There is very little humility or trust in what you have to say, Budge. Just "I'm right because I say the Bible says so". Regarding fear of God, I have already pointed out that your fear is not holy fear. It's the kind of fear that led Adam and Eve to hide away...because they were convinced that God couldn't operate outside the parameters they had defined for Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 [quote name='Budge' post='1301068' date='Jun 25 2007, 07:14 AM']What is wrong with telling nonbeleivers the truth? who said one had to shout? I suppose the apostles when they got beaten and jailed, deserved it for not helping those unbeleivers "understand" in a "nice" way. Sheesh. What is wrong with teaching people something new?[/quote] There is absolutely nothing wrong with telling nonbelievers the truth. That's what we are supposed to be doing! However, you will find that if you use other methods besides the "tell it to them bluntly and argue about it" method, people are much more willing to listen to you. This is a basic of human psychology. People don't work the way you seem to believe. No one likes being told their wrong. That doesn't mean you shouldn't show them they are wrong. But it's a much more effective way of bringing people to Jesus if you talk and show them they are wrong rather than just telling them they are and insisting they have to believe what you tell them. And again, it's not the teaching them part that's wrong. It's the method you seem to believe needs to be used. You reference to the apostles is a non-issue. We would never dishonor the martyrs for their beautiful work for the Kingdom of God. But that was a different time. People could get killed for many things back then. This is 2007 and things are a wee bit different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 Bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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