The Anonymous Christian Theory

[Budge]

[b]There is this new belief out there, maybe not that new that is being taught in the Emergent church, Catholic, and liberal Protestant and evangelical churches that one can be a "Christian" without knowing Christ.[/b]

[u]In essense they could be worshipping their false god, and since they are "sincere" and "good" enough supposely that means they "know" God under the guise of their false god.[/u]

{yeah I know insane, but there are really people who beleive this}

Remember this is tied to the Popes "universal christ' Christ saves the whole world even those who do not accept or acknowledge HIm.

www.everything2.com/index...id=1434159

[quote]
The idea of the anonymous Christian was first developed by a Jesuit priest named Karl Rahner. Rahner and other theologians found that with the advent of modern travel and communications, many Christians were coming into contact with people from other religious traditions than they would have in the past. This posed a problem because many of the laity,wondered, "Why can't my Hindu or Jewish or Buddhist friend who is a moral person receive grace?"
[b]In the past Christian dogma would have said that these friends of other religious traditions cannot receive grace, but Rahner decided to change things a bit, and that's where the idea of the Anonymous Christian comes in. Rahner felt that Jesus offers salvation to everyone who lives good lives, whether or not they choose to believe in the Immaculate Conception, the resurrection or any of it. These people who have earned grace by living good lives, he called Anonymous Christians because Jesus knew them even if they never sought Jesus themselves.[/b]

As you can expect, not all (or even many) Christians buy this idea. In fact, following Rahner's ideas to their logical ends, you are left more with a Christian ethic or philosophy than a religion.[/quote]

If you think about this, this is why people and churches who believe this do not feel the impetus to witness the gospel to anyone.

Because if being sincere and good is enough to go to heaven, why rock the boat?

[SJP]

Well, I'm not really that familiar with the work of Karl Rahner so I don't think that it would be prudent to come to any dead set conclusions about his work.

However, I will share my initial thoughts.

On the one hand, I do believe that salvation is offered to all. Even those who may not have had the opportunity to hear the Gospel.
[quote]Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."[62]Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity."[/quote]

However, it is heretical to state that those who know the Truth of Christ and decide to reject him can still be saved.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Budge' post='1296543' date='Jun 16 2007, 10:56 AM']If you think about this, this is why people and churches who believe this do not feel the impetus to witness the gospel to anyone.

Because if being sincere and good is enough to go to heaven, why rock the boat?[/quote]


If that's the conclusion you come to, then it's obvious you've misunderstood the teaching.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1296665' date='Jun 16 2007, 12:48 PM']If that's the conclusion you come to, then it's obvious you've misunderstood the teaching.[/quote]

One thing to keep in mind: while we are bound by the Sacraments, God is not. If He chooses to work outside them to bring the gift of grace and salvation to someone outside the Church, He can do so. Let God be God!

[Thumper]

Budge, the misleading portion of your intial quote describing the theory of the anonymous Christian is: "whether or not they [b][i]choose[/i][/b] to believe" in Jesus Christ. This theory is meant to apply to those who have not been able to make a choice because they have either not been presented with the truth of Christianity at all, or they have encountered Christians who have acted as counter-witnesses to Christianity.

This theory is not about earning salvation apart from Christ, nor is it about advocating religious relativism. Rather, it points to the conviction that the mercy of God is greater than the historical and sinful limitations of those who consider themselves Christians and who should be spreading the Gospel. In other words, God is not going to hold the proverbial "pagan in the middle of the rainforest" responsible for my parish's failure to organize a mission trip. It underscores that God's grace goes beyond the boundaries of the church, even though the church is still entrusted with and obligated to live out the great commission.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Budge' post='1296543' date='Jun 16 2007, 08:56 AM'][b]There is this new belief out there, maybe not that new that is being taught in the Emergent church, Catholic, and liberal Protestant and evangelical churches that one can be a "Christian" without knowing Christ.[/b]

[u]In essense they could be worshipping their false god, and since they are "sincere" and "good" enough supposely that means they "know" God under the guise of their false god.[/u]

{yeah I know insane, but there are really people who beleive this}

Remember this is tied to the Popes "universal christ' Christ saves the whole world even those who do not accept or acknowledge HIm.

www.everything2.com/index...id=1434159



If you think about this, this is why people and churches who believe this do not feel the impetus to witness the gospel to anyone.

Because if being sincere and good is enough to go to heaven, why rock the boat?[/quote]


I will never be able to consider as good any theory that originates from the mind of Karl Rahner.

[Farsight one]

I am reminded of C.S. Lewis's "The Last Battle" (last book of the Chronicles of Narnia) where Aslan is talking to the righteous foreigner at the end. He says something to the extent of(names changed to apply to real life) "it is impossible to do evil in the name of the Lord and it is impossible to do good in the name of Satan. Therefore, those that claim allegiance to satan, but are righteous and do good works actually have allegiance to God, and those that claim allegiance to God, but are not righteous and do evil works actually have an allegiance to satan."

If you believe that(and it is definitely logical enough) than one could essentially be Christian without knowing Christ.

[Katholikos]

Budge,

1 Tim 2:3-4 "...God our savior, who wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Catechism of the Catholic Church 847
Those who, [b]through no fault of their own[/b], do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience -- those too [b]may[/b] achieve eternal salvation.

[b]BUT[/b], CCC 846
[...]Hence, they could [b]not[/b] be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

[Emphasis added]

Likos

[Budge]

[quote]
One thing to keep in mind: while we are bound by the Sacraments, God is not. If He chooses to work outside them to bring the gift of grace and salvation to someone outside the Church, He can do so. Let God be God![/quote]Why would God contradict His Own Word? He wouldnt.

Thats another thing that universalists always bring up, how God is unlimited. What that does is create a God of their own making to promote rather then believing what God has SAID.

Rome has moved well beyond the Amazonian whose never seen the Bible or heard the gospel in the rainforest, including all members of false religions even in countries where the gospel is freely preached. Even then why dont they preach to these folks rather then expanding the "get out of hell" free card.

Actually Ive read the CCC and 846 is interesting. It is such a wide open loophole it isnt funny. Who would leave a church they "believed" was Christ's church? its stuff like that I cant take seriously.
[quote]
"it is impossible to do evil in the name of the Lord and it is impossible to do good in the name of Satan.[/quote]

CS Lewis was wrong. There were Nazi guards who went home after a day of work at the concentration camp to hug their wives and play with their children. Ted Bundy was kind to his mother.

[SJP]

[quote]Budge writes: Actually Ive read the CCC and 846 is interesting. It is such a wide open loophole it isnt funny. Who would leave a church they "believed" was Christ's church? its stuff like that I cant take seriously. [/quote]I don't think that it's at all far fetched for someone who believes the Catholic Church to be the True Church to place himself outside the Church through an act of sin, or repeated acts of sin. Such a person would by his own actions, be choosing to remain outside the Church even though he may full well believe that the Catholic Church is the True Church. Some choose evil despite God's grace.

[quote]Budge writes: Rome has moved well beyond the Amazonian whose never seen the Bible or heard the gospel in the rainforest, including all members of false religions even in countries where the gospel is freely preached. Even then why dont they preach to these folks rather then expanding the "get out of hell" free card.[/quote]

Catechism of the Catholic Church:
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, [b]the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.[/b]"338

[Norseman82]

At times like these Romans 2:14-15 (about Gentiles keeping the law written on their hearts) come to mind.

[reyb]

[quote name='Budge' post='1296543' date='Jun 16 2007, 09:56 AM'][b]There is this new belief out there, maybe not that new that is being taught in the Emergent church, Catholic, and liberal Protestant and evangelical churches that one can be a "Christian" without knowing Christ.[/b]

[u]In essense they could be worshipping their false god, and since they are "sincere" and "good" enough supposely that means they "know" God under the guise of their false god.[/u]

{yeah I know insane, but there are really people who beleive this}

Remember this is tied to the Popes "universal christ' Christ saves the whole world even those who do not accept or acknowledge HIm.

[b]www.everything2.com/index...id=1434159[/b]


If you think about this, this is why people and churches who believe this do not feel the impetus to witness the gospel to anyone.

Because if being sincere and good is enough to go to heaven, why rock the boat?[/quote]

[indent]Budge,
May I know the title of that writie-ups or whatever in www.everythng2.com?[/indent]

[KnightofChrist]

While it is possible for those that are outside of the cradle of salvation to be saved, because God wishes all to be saved. This does not mean He will, will all to be saved. Christians have promises that if the remain in Christ until the end of their lives they will be saved. Those outside Mother Church do not have this promise, and there is no way in knowing. However if one wishes to way the possibilities it is more likely, when weighing the whole of scripture that God will not save these souls. And He will remain a perfectly just and loving God. But in the end it must be left to God to decide.

[Farsight one]

[quote name='Budge' post='1297397' date='Jun 17 2007, 05:19 PM']Why would God contradict His Own Word? He wouldnt.[/quote]Who said that he was contradicting his own word? No one. You misread. I also must point out that his word was directed towards people, which is a group that He does not exactly fall into.

[quote]Thats another thing that universalists always bring up, how God is unlimited. What that does is create a God of their own making to promote rather then believing what God has SAID.[/quote]Umm...God is unlimited. Are you daring to place limits on the power of God?
[quote]
CS Lewis was wrong. There were Nazi guards who went home after a day of work at the concentration camp to hug their wives and play with their children. Ted Bundy was kind to his mother.[/quote]
1. You clearly didn't understand what I was saying

2. It is not impossible for people who commit horrible acts to perform some good ones as well. What you're basically saying is that Ted Bundy's kindness to his mother was an awful sinful detestable act.

[Budge]

Sure his kindness to his mother could be an evil act. He did it to cover up the rest of his evil. Dont you know how sociopaths operate smiling and being "kind" on the surface using it to deceive?
[quote]Umm...God is unlimited. Are you daring to place limits on the power of God?[/quote]

God is all powerful but your conjecture of an unlimited God has to do more with producing a God of yuor own making rather then adhering to God's revelation about Himself and His commandments.