Did Billy Graham's Wife Die Naturally Or Commit Suicide?

[KnightofChrist]

Ok, I apologize... my mistake. Looked condescending... most of the time when words are put together like that it is. But yes perhaps not... so I apologize.

Edited June 17, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[jckinsman]

Really after the story about the death in her family,the comment doesn't make sense to be nasty. We are typing you know????? It's very hard to really know the true intent some times!

[jckinsman]

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1297183' date='Jun 17 2007, 01:08 AM']Your comment was to put Cmom down, it was condescending. Just as you were in post 11. Anyone can see that. Report me.[/quote]

It wasn't putting anyone down, it wasn't condemning. I wrote specifically that what she had shared was "deep" because it was deep, it came from somewhere real, someplace that people rarely ever share from on this message board, but again, I'd already reported you to the moderation, so we'll see what happens. There's no possible way that someone could take this statement as "condemning" or "putting down":

[quote]She shared something close to her heart, that applied to this conversation and I told her thank you, because it was very bold for her to share, and uplifting to the conversation[/quote]Even CMotherofpirl was able to see that it wasn't insulting, condemning or putting down. It's idiotic to come to the conclusion that I'd ever insult her over sharing such personal information, particularly after I wrote that this thread was a deliberate insult to Ruth Graham. You seriously had to try hard to [deliberately] come to the conclusion that I was trying to insult her [which I clearly wasnt]. I think it's safe to say that you were just trying to justify your own personal attacks towards me, because of your own issues.


[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1297186' date='Jun 17 2007, 01:17 AM']
I don't think it was meant as a put down KoFC, just a odd way of putting a thought.[/quote] Def not suburb middle america huh?

[quote]My mother was dying of pancreatic and liver cancer, food was not really an issue at that point. Nothing short of God Almighty could have helped her.
She told me Jesus was standing at the foot of the bed waiting for her, whats that compared to a few calories?[/quote]

Definately agreed, my great grandmother passed away in her late 80's and my mother was trying to get her to "get healthy again", after she had cancer because my mother wanted her to live longer, but my grandmother just told her that it was her time to take the journey to God's presence. My mother didn't know how to accept this at the time, but after gaining somewhat of a grasp of God, learned what this meant more clearly. I believe that unless someone dies instantly, most elderly people will get to a point, when they'll realize that food was pointless.

This was elequently displayed in the movie "Terese", in which she got the point that she couldn't even take communion, and rather then "keep trying", she had accepted the reality of the situation.

Reza

[KnightofChrist]

Yes it is hard and I guess I was judging from post 11's use of the word "wow" and "...", and also to be honest I thought the choice to use that part of her quote was also questionable, being that the comment "thats deep" seemed to mock "it just wasn't worth the effort."

[jckinsman]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1297186' date='Jun 17 2007, 03:17 AM']I don't think it was meant as a put down KoFC, just a odd way of putting a thought.

My mother was dying of pancreatic and liver cancer, food was not really an issue at that point. Nothing short of God Almighty could have helped her.
She told me Jesus was standing at the foot of the bed waiting for her, whats that compared to a few calories?[/quote]
What a cool thing! I love stories like that. My brother and I were just talking about this today. How his Grand -mother- in -law was very mad when her doctors brought her back from death because she had seen Jesus. I wonder if your just not hungry at all.

Edited June 17, 2007 by jckinsman

[KnightofChrist]

Anyways so theres no confusion, I was wrong. I apologize. Good Night all!

Edited June 17, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[jckinsman]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1297194' date='Jun 17 2007, 03:31 AM']Yes it is hard and I guess I was judging from post 11's use of the word "wow" and "...", and also to be honest I thought the choice to use that part of her quote was also questionable, being that the comment "thats deep" seemed to mock "it just wasn't worth the effort."[/quote]
Alot of the time I will use the "emoticons" to get the point across! It doesn't work always though!

[peach_cube]

I would think that when death is imminent there would be a couple situations where refusal of food would be acceptable.

1. Where the ordinary means of consumption fail, and extraordinary means must be implemented (feeding tubes, IV) in order to receive sustenance. With these implemented there would still be no chance of recovery.

2. Where the weakness and sickness require an extraordinary effort to consume and keep down sustenance, without chance of recovery. (I would think that too much effort and focus on consumption alone in one's last hours would take the focus off of God, where one's focus should be, especially in those last hours or days.)

[Azriel]

and in some cases, eating becomes physically impossible. My Grandmother was in hospice care just last year. At the end, it wasn't a decision to not eat, she just couldn't. Should we have prolonged her life by placing her on a feeding tube when it was so evident that death was emminent?

Btw- My Grandmother's last concious movements were mouthing the rosary along with EWTN.

[jckinsman]

I really don't think there was all that much information on the case in question. Yet,I think that we all can agree that suicide in general is a sin. There will be some cases that we may never know,but rest assured God knows what is in your heart at the time of your death. We need to remember that this is a very important subject. End of life issues are something to take seriously as catholics,agreed? JC

[Budge]

Honestly I dont see why this was even debateable.

Now if mere flu is going to make you never want to see a piece of food again as long as you live, what of terminal cancer?

[jeffpugh]

Sorry Budge, but I fail to grasp what you're saying...

[KnightofChrist]

Translation for Budge:

People who have the flu don't want to eat, can you image what effect terminal cancer would have on the desire to eat food.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1296278' date='Jun 15 2007, 08:32 PM']The Church teaches that it is immoral to deliberately withhold water or nourishment from a patient in any circumstance. These are regarded as ordinary elements to which we are all entitled. Priests for Life, Human Life International, and others said Terry Shivo was murdered by the removal of her feeding tube. On the other hand, the Church teaches that patients and families are not required to employ extraordinary means to sustain life. But what if the patient himself or herself refuses food and water? That's my question.

Actually, the question is personal. In my own last days, may I deliberately refuse food and water as a means of hastening my death without incurring sin? My death would be then be due to dehydration or starvation. Is this suicide? What does the Church teach in such cases?

I'm sorry if my question distrubs you, Rev. I'm not asking you -- or anyone -- to judge Mrs. Graham. That's God's job. My question is about the objective morality of refusing food or water from the Catholic POV. The news article about Mrs. Graham just happened to provide an illustration in which I could frame my question. I thought there might be debate about it, so I posted it in the debate forum.

Likos[/quote]
Your death might in fact come about as a result of the illness...you would simply be weakened sufficiently by lack of food for it to take hold.

I think that at her stage of illness it didn't make much difference and she probably knew it and didn't want to die with a tube down her throat. It's not refusing to give her food and water if she herself refuses to be forcefed. I don't think it rises to the level of suicide either...but I ain't an expert.