One True Church

[reyb]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1341826' date='Jul 26 2007, 09:52 PM']And it's not like the Church is some kind of exclusive elitist club looking down on non-members - everybody is openly invited to join; that's what "Catholic" means.[/quote]

[indent]Thank you on this quote. Sometimes, you need to walk outside your home to see the beauty of the scenery. [/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='mortify' post='1341333' date='Jul 26 2007, 11:03 AM']I thought Protestants are [i]outside[/i] of the fold.
Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441)[/quote]
[indent]yes, according to every churches. When you are in the fold of Protestant, they will say Catholic Church is not the True Church and When you are in the Catholic Church they will say Protestants are not True Church. And I am very sad about this. There is saying 'We are all children of God'. But what happen? Factionalism really lead us to nothing.[/indent]
[indent]Nevertheless, there is way – here in Phatmass.[/indent]

[adt6247]

[quote name='reyb' post='1342134' date='Jul 27 2007, 11:15 AM']Factionalism really lead us to nothing.[/quote]
Correct -- protestants should cease their heresy and actually start joining the Christ's own church. Their factionalism leads them to nothing, except maybe hell.

[adt6247]

[quote name='reyb' post='1342121' date='Jul 27 2007, 10:55 AM']12 We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart.[/quote]
You're using a crummy translation. Try this one for size (Douay-Rheims):

[quote]12: We commend not ourselves again to you, but give you occasion to glory in our behalf: that you may have somewhat to answer them who glory in face, and not in heart.[/quote]

Too many people fail to realize that the bible wasn't written in English.

[reyb]

[indent]so what is the big difference? Or may I say 'wrong' in NIV version? (for me to know the right version of the scripture to use)[/indent]

[adt6247]

[quote name='reyb' post='1342241' date='Jul 27 2007, 02:36 PM'][indent]so what is the big difference? Or may I say 'wrong' in NIV version? (for me to know the right version of the scripture to use)[/indent][/quote]
The NIV is a really poor translation. I suggest you get yourself a good RSV (not NRSV), Douay-Rheims, or Jerusalem. The RSV and Jerusalem are translated from the actual manuscripts of the ancient documents that are available, and the Douay-Rheims is a translation of the Latin vulgate.

First, protestant translations typically remove the deuterocanon, and thus are missing 7 books of the bible, plus parts of Daniel and Esther. These works are present in the Septuagint, an authoritative Hebrew canon translated into Greek and was cited in Matthew.

Second, many translations make modifications based on political agenda. For example, most modern translations use inclusive language.

Third, modern English in current use is sloppy. For instance, the word "pride" as it is used in English today has multiple different meanings. There are three different Greek words that are typically translated into the English word "love" ("agape" -- selfless gift-love or charity; "philios" -- a mutual friendly love; "eros" -- erotic or sexual love). It is good to be aware that cultural-linguistic idioms do not carry over well, and our own such idioms cannot be applied in reverse, as the English text is merely a rendered translation of the original languages.

[reyb]

[quote name='adt6247' post='1342246' date='Jul 27 2007, 01:53 PM']The NIV is a really poor translation. I suggest you get yourself a good RSV (not NRSV), Douay-Rheims, or Jerusalem. The RSV and Jerusalem are translated from the actual manuscripts of the ancient documents that are available, and the Douay-Rheims is a translation of the Latin vulgate.

First, protestant translations typically remove the deuterocanon, and thus are missing 7 books of the bible, plus parts of Daniel and Esther. These works are present in the Septuagint, an authoritative Hebrew canon translated into Greek and was cited in Matthew.

Second, many translations make modifications based on political agenda. For example, most modern translations use inclusive language.

Third, modern English in current use is sloppy. For instance, the word "pride" as it is used in English today has multiple different meanings. There are three different Greek words that are typically translated into the English word "love" ("agape" -- selfless gift-love or charity; "philios" -- a mutual friendly love; "eros" -- erotic or sexual love). It is good to be aware that cultural-linguistic idioms do not carry over well, and our own such idioms cannot be applied in reverse, as the English text is merely a rendered translation of the original languages.[/quote]
[indent]Thank you for this info. [/indent]

[reyb]

[indent]It is written in Eph 5:25-29

[indent][color="#FF0000"]25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church—[/color][/indent]

Now if your Church is the True Church of Christ – The Only True Church – are holy prophets a part or member of your Church? I mean, do your Church having same faith and baptism as that of the holy prophets and apostle? As it is written [color="#FF0000"]Eph 4:4-6 There is one body and one Spirit— just as you were called to one hope when you were called— one Lord, one faith, one baptism ; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. [/color]

In other word, are holy prophets Catholics? Are holy prophets Protestants? [/indent]

[reyb]

[indent][topic="1333184"]Sacred tradition is just an interpretations, understandings, calculations, conclusion and belief as they read the witnesses’ testimony. In short, they are not true witnesses and their sacred tradition is a product of their own studies, interpretation and conclusion[/topic].[/indent]

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1335783' date='Jul 20 2007, 04:19 PM']This is not true, Reyb. This is why I have been putting so much emphasis on the historical and Sacramental validity of the Ordination of Bishops, the successors of the Apostles. The Bishops, insofar as they act as Bishops, are absolutely forbidden from 'interpreting' anything. They are messengers carrying a message. The Early Church Fathers (especially the earliest ones), when they spoke on matters of doctrine, very openly say that they are not interpreting anything, but rather telling what they have been told. The things they were told were things from the very mouths of the Apostles: this is a historical fact. When the Early Church fathers act as theologians (people who interpret the Word of God), then they are indeed considered fallible. But, as I said, acting as Bishops they were doing something different: transmitting the living Word of God to the Church.

This same Apostolic, Sacred Tradition lives in the Magisterium of the Catholic Church: they do not interpret anything. They merely speak what they have been told. We must remember also that this is based on (and is only possible by) the promise of Jesus Christ that the Holy Spirit would cause the Apostles (and, I believe, their successors) to remember what Christ had taught them. This fits with the other promise of Christ that against the Church the gates of hell would not prevail.[/quote]

[indent]May I know what is the meaning of ‘[topic="1361010"]This tradition which comes from the Apostles develop in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. For there is a growth in the understanding of the realities and the words which have been handed down’[/topic].? (from Dei Verbum -see Sacred Tradition Thread)[/indent]

[reyb]

[indent]Matt 16:17-20

[color="#FF0000"]17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." [/color]
NIV[/indent]

[indent]In the above verses, if it is truly referring to Roman Catholic Church? Why then the early Church fathers need to ‘improve’ whatever belief or doctrine given to them? And may I know what is that ‘improvement’?[/indent]

[PopeClementI(MorClemis)]

Rey,

Can I ask you something - are you asking for your own edification or are you asking so you can cut and paste response from another site?

[reyb]

[quote name='PopeClementI(MorClemis)' post='1426964' date='Nov 29 2007, 10:01 PM']Rey,

Can I ask you something - are you asking for your own edification or are you asking so you can cut and paste response from another site?[/quote]

[indent]I am not a member of any other site (chrisitian site/forum). Ah yes, I was once a member of Catholic Community (last 2005 more less) but no more. Meaning, I have no way to do it although I will put in my heart anything I will learn and hear from Phatmass. This is the reason why I want clear responses from a true blooded catholics and even from protestants who are here. Why do you ask about it?[/indent]

Edited November 30, 2007 by reyb

[reyb]

[indent]Another thing, I think I registered to abercius24 web site as member but I cannot remember if I posted anything. I even forgot his web site. Anyway, I will visit it - I think he put his site in 'sacred tradition thread'.[/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='reyb' post='1358567' date='Aug 14 2007, 01:31 AM'][indent]It is written in Eph 5:25-29

Now if your Church is the True Church of Christ – The Only True Church – are holy prophets a part or member of your Church? I mean, do your Church having same faith and baptism as that of the holy prophets and apostle? As it is written [color="#FF0000"]Eph 4:4-6 There is one body and one Spirit— just as you were called to one hope when you were called— one Lord, one faith, one baptism ; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. [/color]

In other word, are holy prophets Catholics? Are holy prophets Protestants? [/indent][/quote]
[indent]-------------------------------------------------------------[/indent]
[indent]....but holy [post="1438778"]Prophets are Christians[/post][/indent]

[Galloglasses]

Oh yes, Reyb, you never did get back to us on that [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=81540&st=20&start=20"]Bible[/url] thread you started.