How This Really Works?

[reyb]

[indent]From the Catechsim of the Catholic Church on what the Catholic Church teaches:[/indent]

[indent][indent]1087 [color="#0000FF"]Thus the risen Christ, by giving the Holy Spirit to the apostles, entrusted to them his power of sanctifying: they became sacramental signs of Christ. By the power of the same Holy Spirit they entrusted this power to their successors. This "apostolic succession" structures the whole liturgical life of the Church and is itself sacramental, handed on by the sacrament of Holy Orders[/color].[/indent][/indent]
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[indent]How this apostolic succession really works? It is in accordance with teaching of the Holy Scriptures?[/indent]

[Katholikos]

[quote name='reyb' post='1295011' date='Jun 14 2007, 01:46 AM'][indent]From the Catechsim of the Catholic Church on what the Catholic Church teaches
[indent] [...]

How this apostolic succession really works? It is in accordance with teaching of the Holy Scriptures?[/indent][/quote]

We begin with the knowledge that the Church did not come out of the Scriptures; rather, the Scriptures came out of the Church. The NT is based on the teaching Church who wrote it -- not the other way around. The Church's teachings are written into the NT, either implicity of explicitly, precisely because the Church was teaching before, during, and after she wrote the NT under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

The bishops of the Catholic Church can trace their ordinations back to the apostles themselves. This laying on of hands in the sacrament of Holy Orders takes place as part of an uninterrupted chain connecting us to Christ himself two thousand years ago. In every sense, today's bishops are the successors of Peter, Andrew, James, John, Philip, Barthelomew, Thomas, Matthew, James, Thaddeus, Simon the Zealot, and Matthias who replaced Judas Iscariot.

Acts 6:6 -- "They presented these men to the apostles who prayed and laid hands on them." [u]The Church's authority is thus passed from generation to generation[/u].

Eph 2:19-20 -- ". . . you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone." [u]The Church's authority is not based on human wisdom or insight, or even on the Bible, but on the authority of God passed to and through the apostles.[/u]

1 Tim 3:1 -- "This saying is trustworthy: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task." Note that the episcopate is an "office." That clearly denotes an ongoing institition that is renewed from one generation to the next.

Acts 1:20-26 -- "May another take his office." Peter supervises the choice of Judas' successor. Judas' office did not die with him; it had to be filled, just as the office of bishop in the Church has been filled through the ages.

Acts 14:23 -- Sts. Paul and Barnabas ordain others. No one ordains himself, nor does anyone act as presbyter (transliteration, priest; translation, elder) without being ordained. "They appointed presbyters for them in each church . . ."

2 Tim 2:1-2 -- St. Paul commissions Timothy to carry on the work of the apostles: "So you, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And what you have heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to reach others as well." [u]Paul here gives us an insight into the workings of Sacred Tradition -- the teachings of the apostles are passed along, though the authority of the Church -- from one generation to the next.[/u]

2 Tim 3:14 -- ". . . Remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it... ." [u]Authority is derived from apostolic succession -- not from an appeal to "scripture alone[/u]."

There are more Scriptures. To be continued, by me or perhaps by others.

Likos

Edit to correct a typo

Edited June 14, 2007 by Katholikos

[reyb]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1295031' date='Jun 14 2007, 03:15 AM'][indent][color="#0000FF"]We begin with the knowledge that the Church did not come out of the Scriptures; rather, the Scriptures came out of the Church. The NT is based on the teaching Church who wrote it -- not the other way around[/color]. The Church's teachings are written into the NT, either implicity of explicitly, precisely because the Church was teaching before, during, and after she wrote the NT under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. [/indent][/quote]

[indent] I am not aware of it. ok.[/indent]

[reyb]

[indent]Katholikos[/indent]
[indent]Thank you and I started a new topic because I really want to know the reason behind the Roman Catholic Church.
I am hoping for good discussion about 'apostolic succession - how it works'[/indent]

[reyb]

[indent]where can I get the list of all 'apostolic successor'?[/indent]

[KnightofChrist]

The Church is more than just roman, She is universal which is what catholic means. Which makes the saying "Roman Catholic" an oxymoron, somewhat. Roman universal? Rome itself is not universal, it would be like American Catholic Church, America is not universal.

Anyway I hope I make sense perhaps another will explain better. Point is the right terms would be Catholic Church or Holy Catholic Church since she is not limited to Rome alone.

[url="http://%5burl=http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm%5dhttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm%5b/url%5d"]List of Popes - apostolic succession[/url]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm[/url]

Edited June 14, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[reyb]

[indent]Why Paul is not in list of Pope?[/indent]

[reyb]

[indent]Pope St. Linus
(Reigned about A.D. 64 or 67 to 76 or 79). [/indent]
[indent][color="#0000FF"]All the ancient records of the Roman bishops which have been handed down to us by St. Irenaeus, Julius Africanus, St. Hippolytus, Eusebius[/color], also the Liberian catalogue of 354, place the name of Linus directly after that of the Prince of the Apostles, St. Peter. These records are traced back to a list of the Roman bishops which existed in the time of Pope Eleutherus (about 174-189), when Irenaeus wrote his book "Adversus haereses". As opposed to this testimony, we cannot accept as more reliable Tertullian's assertion, which unquestionably places St. Clement (De praescriptione, xxii) after the Apostle Peter, as was also done later by other Latin scholars (Jerome, "De vir. ill.", xv). The Roman list in Irenaeus has undoubtedly greater claims to historical authority. This author claims that Pope Linus is the Linus mentioned by St. Paul in his II Timothy 4:21. The passage by Irenaeus (Adv. haereses, III, iii, 3) reads:


After the Holy Apostles (Peter and Paul) had founded and set the Church in order (in Rome) they gave over the exercise of the episcopal office to Linus. The same Linus is mentioned by St. Paul in his Epistle to Timothy. His successor was Anacletus.[/indent]-----------------------------------

[indent]After Peter is Linus.[/indent][indent]Why Paul is not a pope?[/indent]

[Aloysius]

Paul was contemporary with Peter. He was a bishop, but was not made Peter's successor (I can't remember which died first, I think either Paul might've died before Peter or we don't know when they died or something... or is there some tradition that they died at the same time? I don't remember) by Peter, he was a fellow bishop during Peter's lifetime.

Put into a modern context, if someone in the future were looking at the list of popes in the modern church they might just as well say "Why is Cardinal Arinze not listed as a pope?"... because he is not a pope, just a really good bishop. Same with St. Paul, he was not a pope, just a really good bishop and Apostle.

[reyb]

[indent]it is possible. Thank you.[/indent]

[Kirisutodo333]

[quote name='reyb' post='1295991' date='Jun 15 2007, 01:36 PM'][indent]Pope St. Linus
(Reigned about A.D. 64 or 67 to 76 or 79). [/indent]
[indent][color="#0000FF"]All the ancient records of the Roman bishops which have been handed down to us by St. Irenaeus, Julius Africanus, St. Hippolytus, Eusebius[/color], also the Liberian catalogue of 354, place the name of Linus directly after that of the Prince of the Apostles, St. Peter. These records are traced back to a list of the Roman bishops which existed in the time of Pope Eleutherus (about 174-189), when Irenaeus wrote his book "Adversus haereses". As opposed to this testimony, we cannot accept as more reliable Tertullian's assertion, which unquestionably places St. Clement (De praescriptione, xxii) after the Apostle Peter, as was also done later by other Latin scholars (Jerome, "De vir. ill.", xv). The Roman list in Irenaeus has undoubtedly greater claims to historical authority. This author claims that Pope Linus is the Linus mentioned by St. Paul in his II Timothy 4:21. The passage by Irenaeus (Adv. haereses, III, iii, 3) reads:
After the Holy Apostles (Peter and Paul) had founded and set the Church in order (in Rome) they gave over the exercise of the episcopal office to Linus. The same Linus is mentioned by St. Paul in his Epistle to Timothy. His successor was Anacletus.[/indent]-----------------------------------

[indent]After Peter is Linus.[/indent][indent]Why Paul is not a pope?[/indent][/quote]

Why Paul be pope?

Why Timothy not pope?
Why John not pope?
Why Matthew not pope?
Why James not pope?

Why does matter to you why Paul pope?

I have a strange feeling, reyb, that you are smarter than you're leading us to believe.

[reyb]

[indent]Who was the pope when the doctrine of holy trinity was formulated?[/indent]

[reyb]

[indent]Please do not doubt my intention. I am just doing this for sake of truth No more No less.[/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='Kirisutodo333' post='1296045' date='Jun 15 2007, 01:44 PM']Why Paul be pope?

Why Timothy not pope?
Why John not pope?
Why Matthew not pope?
Why James not pope?

Why does matter to you why Paul pope?

I have a strange feeling, reyb, that you are smarter than you're leading us to believe.[/quote]

[indent]Because as far as I know, according to what I learn here. Roman Catholic Church was the Church of Christ, entrust by Jesus to Peter. How about those churches mentioned by Paul in his letters?[/indent]

[Kirisutodo333]

[quote name='reyb' post='1296051' date='Jun 15 2007, 03:03 PM'][indent]Because as far as I know, according to what I learn here. Roman Catholic Church was the Church of Christ, entrust by Jesus to Peter. How about those churches mentioned by Paul in his letters?[/indent][/quote]

In the Council of Constantinople, the Trinity was given its formal recognition as one God in three persons of the same substance (homousios). All three are one, all three fully divine. This was in 381 A.D. At this time the bishop of Rome was St. Damascus I.