"the U.s. Catholic Church Is Sinking Fast "

[farglefeezlebut]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1294361' date='Jun 13 2007, 07:33 AM']The questions are worded in a way to encourage bias.

"[You]can be a good Catholic without attending Mass every week." Well DUH, of course you can. If I'm sick and can't get out of bed, or if my car breaks down on the way to evening mass, I didn't attend mass every week but I'm still a good Catholic. If I miss mass and then am in confession the next week, I'm still a good Catholic.

The correct wording would have been, "Do you agree with the church's teaching of attending mass every week."

Secondly, if it was up to me, we'd DRAMATICALLY drop in numbers, with everyone who doesn't agree with church teaching leaving.[/quote]


That's exactly what I thought when I was reading it. One of the best Catholics I know is frequently unable to make it to Church, through no fault of her own.

I'd like to know more about the sampling and methodology of this questionnaire, also.

Anyway, one hundred and four percent of people know that four out of three statistics are made up and twenty bajillion per cent of them aren't even plausible.

The abortion thing worries me. I was against it even in my "liberal phase."

Saint Bernadette's prayers kept me in the Church. I know it. I thought about leaving Cathoplicism to become a Quaker or even not to have any organised religion, but what held me back was the memory of my confirmation (Bernadette is my confirmation Saint) and the memory of pilgrimage to Lourdes. So I think she prayed for me and that is why I stayed. Also my family fixed the poor catechesis I had received. There was so much they assumed I knew. When they realised I didn't know it they were shocked.

Cathechesis needs sorting out. Where are the Dominicans when we need them?

Jesus will look after us.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='mortify' post='1294014' date='Jun 12 2007, 08:14 PM']Friends, I also hope everything goes for the better, and perhaps we have the consolation that liberalism is self defeating, but we have to deal with the fact that we are shrinking. More of us cross over to the other side than the other side coming to us, and those that do don't just leave, they often want their views to become Magesterial teaching.[/quote]

The Pope has essentially acknowledged that the Church will "shrink," but with a view toward "quality" rather than "quantity." We can't force people to believe, all we can do is ask that those who are "on board" to be so 100%.

[philosophette]

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1294107' date='Jun 12 2007, 10:30 PM']i'd like to suggest a different opinion. those of us (i'm a teen) who ARE in line with catholic teaching are in the midst of a great renewal. i've seen so much fervor devotion and love for the church in young people that i am shocked and amazed. young people today really love their church and i believe that the us catholic church is not on a decline. perhaps the older population? *shrugs* but i am a youth and i havent seen a decline...i HAVE seen many people who disagree with the church and many of them leave the church but there are many more of us who love the church and the future of the church is not something that i am too worried about. excited would be a much better word.[/quote]


[quote name='johnnydigit' post='1294369' date='Jun 13 2007, 02:52 AM']red flag 3.) "highly committed Catholics"

"3 out of 4 dentists choose Crest."
prune prune prune. maybe i'm just young, but i sense a strong renewal brewing too.[/quote]


[quote name='Staretz' post='1294385' date='Jun 13 2007, 06:00 AM']I would have to concur with the people who have pointed out sampling errors and experimenter bias in this survey. I see a lot of hope for the future of the Church. Thanks to sites like this and others, I hae come across many tweenaged (between 12 and 30) catholics with a great love of the Church and her teachings, and a great desire to know more and draw other people closer. I am told there was a bit of a demographic dip after the First Vatican Council as well.

But indeed the greatest sign of hope is that the Gates of Hell will not prevail against it.[/quote]


I would totally agree. I think that if the survey was done among those Millennial Catholics who actually practice their faith as opposed to those who call themselves Catholic as a matter of convenience, the results would be very different. I also agree with dUST that the wording was totally biased and designed to get a certain result.

I never pay much attention to these surveys and I object to how the NOR named this piece - "The US Catholic Church is Sinking Fast". What piffle. There is a revival of faith taking place, it might be slowly happening, but it is happening, and are we really all that much worse compared to the Catholic Church in Spain or other such countries where they also allow abortion? Are other countries simply better in their faith because they have Gothic Churches?

I think that if anyone is paying any attention at all to the numbers of young people entering religious life (so far [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=60330"]13 this year just among PhatMasser[/url]s) they would also not even pay heed to such a study. I am among eight women entering the Salesian Sisters in August... the year before there were three, the year before that one, before that zero... and had been for several years.

Let us not insult the work of the Holy Spirit among the young, NOR.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='philosobrat' post='1294456' date='Jun 13 2007, 11:32 AM']I would totally agree. I think that if the survey was done among those Millennial Catholics who actually practice their faith as opposed to those who call themselves Catholic as a matter of convenience, the results would be very different. I also agree with dUST that the wording was totally biased and designed to get a certain result.

I never pay much attention to these surveys and I object to how the NOR named this piece - "The US Catholic Church is Sinking Fast". What piffle. There is a revival of faith taking place, it might be slowly happening, but it is happening, and are we really all that much worse compared to the Catholic Church in Spain or other such countries where they also allow abortion? Are other countries simply better in their faith because they have Gothic Churches?

I think that if anyone is paying any attention at all to the numbers of young people entering religious life (so far [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=60330"]13 this year just among PhatMasser[/url]s) they would also not even pay heed to such a study. I am among eight women entering the Salesian Sisters in August... the year before there were three, the year before that one, before that zero... and had been for several years.

Let us not insult the work of the Holy Spirit among the young, NOR.[/quote]


Can't remember if it was Moses or Joshua, but the Isrealites were about to go to battle and God said you have to many men. He used some tests to whittle it down from about 10,000 to 300 as I recall. Then gave them victory.

I heard Benedict XVI say that there may be some pruning back in the Church. I've heard others say it as well. I would not be surprized.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1294462' date='Jun 13 2007, 11:37 AM']Can't remember if it was Moses or Joshua, but the Isrealites were about to go to battle and God said you have to many men. He used some tests to whittle it down from about 10,000 to 300 as I recall. Then gave them victory.

I heard Benedict XVI say that there may be some pruning back in the Church. I've heard others say it as well. I would not be surprized.[/quote]
Gideon.

[prose]

Okay, another thing...

There were "over 1600" surveyed, they split them into these three groups... But no one mentioned how big the groups are.

For instance if there are only 20 "millenial" catholics that responded, it is quite easy to get high percentages like that.

[God Conquers]

Whatever.

All those surveys and articles are bunk.

"These are the future Catholics" my left butt cheek. These are the future fallen-away Catholics, Catholics who don't go to Church and Caholics who don't really care about being Catholic.

We are the future Catholics.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1294503' date='Jun 13 2007, 01:26 PM']Gideon.[/quote]

Yep. Thanks.

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='God Conquers' post='1294587' date='Jun 13 2007, 03:44 PM']Whatever.

All those surveys and articles are bunk.

"These are the future Catholics" my left butt cheek. These are the future fallen-away Catholics, Catholics who don't go to Church and Caholics who don't really care about being Catholic.

We are the future Catholics.[/quote]






Heheheheh. You said "butt cheek."

Edited June 13, 2007 by Ash Wednesday

[mortify]

Awesome replies, just making sure you guys are awake

[journeyman]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1294503' date='Jun 13 2007, 12:26 PM']Gideon.[/quote]


You beat me to it . . . if only I'd been here 8 hours earlier

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1294107' date='Jun 12 2007, 11:30 PM']i'd like to suggest a different opinion. those of us (i'm a teen) who ARE in line with catholic teaching are in the midst of a great renewal. i've seen so much fervor devotion and love for the church in young people that i am shocked and amazed. young people today really love their church and i believe that the us catholic church is not on a decline. perhaps the older population? *shrugs* but i am a youth and i havent seen a decline...i HAVE seen many people who disagree with the church and many of them leave the church but there are many more of us who love the church and the future of the church is not something that i am too worried about. excited would be a much better word.[/quote]

Yes, I do see the young people getting involved. It's miraculous. I'm in a youth ministry with a lot of good young people. A private Catholic school has just got it's own building in my area. Lots of young families are hardcore Catholic. As for my group though, I gotta get em away from that silly praise and worship stuff. Expand their repertoire

[Socrates]

[quote name='God Conquers' post='1294587' date='Jun 13 2007, 02:44 PM']Whatever.

All those surveys and articles are bunk.

"These are the future Catholics" my left butt cheek. These are the future fallen-away Catholics, Catholics who don't go to Church and Caholics who don't really care about being Catholic.

We are the future Catholics.[/quote]
I agree. I think most of these clueless young "Catholics" are people who could really care less about their religion, and for whom "Catholic" is little more than a vague ethnic identity - a box to check when filling out "religion" on polls, and who probably attend Mass (at most) Christmas and Easter. Such folks are unlikely to have much of an impact on the future direction of the Church.

Obviously, they should be brought back fully into the Church and converted to orthodox fervent Catholics, but I really don't think their lax indifferent attitudes represent that of "The Catholic Church of the Future."
Of course liberal polsters will likely avoid places with a vibrant orthodox Catholic Faith, or regard them as "irrelevent" and "outside the mainstream" of the Church.

It's interesting that "liberal Catholics" use such polls to triumphantly proclaim their liberal agenda "the Church of the future," while gloom-and-doom conservatives take them and give their whole-hearted agreement - as it "proves" their message of relentless negativism and despair regarding the Church.

[Socrates]

[quote name='mortify' post='1294014' date='Jun 12 2007, 08:14 PM']Friends, I also hope everything goes for the better, and perhaps we have the consolation that liberalism is self defeating, but we have to deal with the fact that we are shrinking. More of us cross over to the other side than the other side coming to us, and those that do don't just leave, they often want their views to become Magesterial teaching.[/quote]
What do you mean by "cross over to the other side"? While my experiences are admittedly limited, how many committed, active young orthodox Catholics have you seen "cross over" to become wishy-washy "liberal Catholics"? (And I'm not counting here ignorant kids who only went to Mass because Mommy made them go.) I haven't seen many, though I have seen a number of lukewarm "cafeteria Catholics" "revert" to orthodoxy.
And it seems most younger converts are orthodox. There's not much of a point in converting to a watered-down "liberal" Catholicism.

[quote name='philosobrat' post='1294456' date='Jun 13 2007, 10:32 AM']I would totally agree. I think that if the survey was done among those Millennial Catholics who actually practice their faith as There is a revival of faith taking place, it might be slowly happening, but it is happening, and are we really all that much worse compared to the Catholic Church in Spain or other such countries where they also allow abortion? Are other countries simply better in their faith because they have Gothic Churches?[/quote]
To give NOR it's due, this isn't an "America-bashing" article, but they say things are worse in Europe. They are basically saying there is no hope anywhere.
[quote]We are saddened to say that things are just not working in the U.S., and Europe is worse. No springtime here. Actually, the forecast calls for an extended winter.[/quote]

Edited June 14, 2007 by Socrates

[Maggyie]

At the same time I can see where they get these statistics. There seems to be so many good things going on, so many wonderful orthodox resources and movements popping up. And yet sometimes I worry that I tend to stick in my own little orthodox Catholic ghetto and my optimism is not justified. When I meet a young Catholic it's still the case that they're much more likely to be lax, heterodox, uncatechized etc than otherwise I saw an awful lot of it at college among kids who fell right in the Millenial age group. The majority of them had been brought to Mass throughout their youth, had been confirmed and even had been altar servers or gone to youth groups.

Of course we have the ultimate reason to be optimistic because God is in charge and He has already won the victory. But the little battles in between don't always go our way...