Call No Man Magister?

[kenrockthefirst]

The following verses speak pretty clearly to the fact that there are leaders within the Church who's job it is to guide us in our faith.

[i]Remember your [b]leaders[/b] who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.[/i] (Heb. 13:7)

[i][b]Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you[/b] and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you.[/i] (Heb. 13:17)

[emphasis added]

Can anyone speak to translation of the words "leaders" (vv. 7, 17) and "obey" (v. 17)?

[Guest FourArrows]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1293553' date='Jun 12 2007, 10:26 AM']The following verses speak pretty clearly to the fact that there are leaders within the Church who's job it is to guide us in our faith.

[i]Remember your [b]leaders[/b] who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.[/i] (Heb. 13:7)

[i][b]Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you[/b] and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you.[/i] (Heb. 13:17)

[emphasis added]

Can anyone speak to translation of the words "leaders" (vv. 7, 17) and "obey" (v. 17)?[/quote]

I'll bite

I am thinking that, by your title, you are refering to Matthew 23 which says not to call any man rabbi, father, teacher".
As in any Biblical discussion, the first address should be to the context.
To that end, I'll copy/paste the passage here before giving my take on it.
The following is from the NASB (I don't have a catholic Bible, so I don't know what differences in grammar and syntax there would be, but I doubt they are much different. My apologies):

[center]Matthew 23

Pharisaism Exposed

1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples,
2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;

3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.

4 "They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.

5 "But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.

6 "They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues,

7 and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men.

8 "But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.

9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

10 "Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.

11 "But the greatest among you shall be your servant.

12 "Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.[/center]

This passage is not concerning church heirarchy - whether it be Roman Catholics who say "father", Jews who say "rabbi", or protestants who say "pastor."
This is about personal exaltation over others. It is about thinking that because I have been to seminary I know more than you (I haven't, and I don't ). It is about thinking that because I am in a place of spiritual authority I am greater than you in the flesh (I'm not and I'm not ).
Romans 12:3-6a (and beyond, though not quoted below) is an excellent passage to consider along with this passage from Matthew:

[center]3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

4 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function,

5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

6 Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly:[/center]

In Matthew, Jesus was pointing out the scribes and Pharisees, calling them hypocrits and encouraging his followers NOT to be like them. They thought too highly of themselves. They thought that because they were, perhaps, more educated than the common carpenter. They wallowed in their status and relished the titles that came with it. Not necessarily the titles themselves, because for all they cared they could have been called "Grand Poobah" (ala the Flintstones) but the fact that those whom they deemed lower than themselves "had" to give them such honors. They were puffed up and the people were deflated.

The common ground is seen well In Romans 12. We are ALL brethern ... equal in the sight of God. Do not think that you are greater than anyone else. And don't look down on yourself, either.
We are all given a measure of faith according to God's own good pleasure. And, by that same good pleasure, each child of God is given a gift. If your gift is teaching and mine is serving, should either of us think that you are greater because you lead? Should either of us think that I am less because I serve?
We forget that we do not create ourselves. We do not give ourselves faith nor gifts. If you are a teacher then Praise God and look down on no one for it. If you are a servant, then Praise God and do not think you are nothing in the Kingdom of God.

Titles such as Father, Pastor, Rabbi, Master, Lord, are titles of respect given to those who know certain things. But, if they are children of God, the reality is that are "merely" brothers (and sisters) in Christ.

Simply put: Don't get wrapped up in titles. In the eyes of God, His children are all equal, and each place He has assigned is of great importance and has a specific job to be done in the Kingdom..

Well, that's my take on it, anyway

Edited June 12, 2007 by FourArrows

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1293553' date='Jun 12 2007, 08:26 AM']The following verses speak pretty clearly to the fact that there are leaders within the Church who's job it is to guide us in our faith.

[i]Remember your [b]leaders[/b] who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.[/i] (Heb. 13:7)

[i][b]Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you[/b] and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you.[/i] (Heb. 13:17)

[emphasis added]

Can anyone speak to translation of the words "leaders" (vv. 7, 17) and "obey" (v. 17)?[/quote]
"[b]Leaders[/b]": the word used in Hebrews 13:17 is [i]hegoumenois[/i] ("[i]hegeomai[/i]"). According to Strong's (a resource that Protestants accept and use) the meaning of this word in Biblical Greek is thus: [i]to lead; to go before; to be a leader; to rule, command; to have authority over; a prince, of regal power, governor, viceroy, chief, leading as respects influence, controlling in counsel, overseers or leaders of the churches; etc.[/i]

"[b]Obey[/b]": the Greek is [i]peithesthe[/i] ("[i]peitho[/i]"), which in this context can mean to listen to, obey, yield to, comply with; to trust, have confidence, be confident.

"[b]Submit[/b]": the word here is [i]hypeikete[/i] ("[i]hypeiko[/i]"), which, again according to Strong's concordance, means "to submit one's self"; to resist no longer, but to give way, yield; to yield to authority and admonition, to submit.

The complete verse would be transliterated something like this (I'll correct any errors later when I get a chance to look it up in my Greek NT):

[i][b]Peithesthe[/b] tois [b]hegoumenois[/b] hymon kai [b]hypeikete[/b] autoi gar agrypnousin hyper ton psychon hymon hos logon apodosontes ina meta charas touto poiosin kai me stenazontes alysiteles gar hymin touto.[/i]

Other words of significance, in my opinion, are [i]apodosontes[/i] ([i]apodidomi[/i]) and [i]alysiteles[/i]. The passage suggests to me that a significant and grave sort of authority is involved here.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Just for kicks here is a thread on this topic (three pages) with a good bit of information. [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=57331&st=20"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...57331&st=20[/url]

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='FourArrows' post='1293873' date='Jun 12 2007, 04:11 PM']The common ground is seen well In Romans 12. We are ALL brethern ... equal in the sight of God. Do not think that you are greater than anyone else. And don't look down on yourself, either.
We are all given a measure of faith according to God's own good pleasure. And, by that same good pleasure, each child of God is given a gift. If your gift is teaching and mine is serving, should either of us think that you are greater because you lead? Should either of us think that I am less because I serve?
We forget that we do not create ourselves. We do not give ourselves faith nor gifts. If you are a teacher then Praise God and look down on no one for it. If you are a servant, then Praise God and do not think you are nothing in the Kingdom of God.

Titles such as Father, Pastor, Rabbi, Master, Lord, are titles of respect given to those who know certain things. But, if they are children of God, the reality is that are "merely" brothers (and sisters) in Christ.

Simply put: Don't get wrapped up in titles. In the eyes of God, His children are all equal, and each place He has assigned is of great importance and has a specific job to be done in the Kingdom..

Well, that's my take on it, anyway [/quote]

What I tried to get at is simply this: that there are those within the Church who are called and have the authority to teach, to guide, which in turn implies the authority to interpret and to decide matters of faith.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1294417' date='Jun 13 2007, 08:20 AM']What I tried to get at is simply this: that there are those within the Church who are called and have the authority to teach, to guide, which in turn implies the authority to interpret and to decide matters of faith.[/quote]
Yeah, Saint Paul certainly regarded himself as the "magister" of the Gentiles.

2 Tim 1:11 - [i]In quo positus sum ego praedicator et apostolus et [b]magister[/b] gentium[/i].
Wherein I am appointed a preacher and an apostle and teacher of the Gentiles.

I guess someone forgot to mention the "call no man magister" bit to St. Paul (to say nothing of the "call no man father" thing).

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1295030' date='Jun 14 2007, 02:13 AM']I guess someone forgot to mention the "call no man magister" bit to St. Paul (to say nothing of the "call no man father" thing).[/quote]