Discernment And Same Sex Attraction

[cathoholic_anonymous]

I couldn't agree with you more, opher.

Mother Teresa once said, "Every person is Christ for me, and since there is only one Jesus, that person is the one person in the world at that moment."

I've posed questions about my disabilities on the Vocation Station before. I've asked whether my difficulties would prevent me from being a good nun. While sexuality and disability are different things, they can both cause problems for discerners and they are both quite difficult to talk about honestly.

When I came here with my questions, I was welcomed and treated as a person. By everybody. But it seems that there are people on here who aren't willing to extend Ian the same courtesy. He doesn't even get the luxury of being addressed by name - he just gets "Absolutely NOT" and "I think this should be moved to the debate table". If you believe that a homosexual person could never make a good priest, at least show some charity in your judgment and remember that you are talking to a human being. When we respond to Ian's question, Ian should be the only person in the world for us. Our Christ.

Unfortunately, some people are unreasonably frightened of homosexuality. So they try to sort homosexual people into neatly labelled boxes, try to blame everything bad that has ever happened in the ranks of the clergy on 'the homosexuals', and try to legislate how far God's grace can go in giving such people the necessary patience and strength to follow a vocation to the religious life. They become 'issues' to be debated rather than Catholic brothers and sisters to be respected. It's much easier to love someone if they're like you, but where's the value in that?

[Veritas]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1293607' date='Jun 12 2007, 11:15 AM']The second article is not a Vatican document. It is based on one man's personal experience. He may believe that homosexuality is the primary root of paedophilic scandals in the Church; I do not. Perhaps this is because I have come into contact with too many young people who were abused by paedophiles. I know the truth of the evidence put forward by the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children: that the majority of paedophiles a.) are married men and b.) abuse their own children.

It is not accurate to blame the sex abuse scandals on homosexual clergy alone. Homosexual clergy may have participated, but it wasn't exclusively their fault and they certainly weren't alone in doing what they did.[/quote]

+

Wasn't intending to pass of the second link as a Vatican Document. Apologies if that wasn't clear.

[b]It is important to note the facts. According to the USCCB, over 80% of the "pedophilia" abuses here in the US were against post-pubescent young men. That is homosexuality. In the US clergy abuse scandals, the issue was homosexuality.[/b]

Again, it is nice that people are offering a lot of opinions and I respect the fact that people are trying to be compassionate, but we have to look at what the Church says about this and not offer false compassion and false hope. The Church in her Divine Wisdom must be our authority in this matter. She says:

[b]In the light of this teaching, this dicastery, in accord with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, believes it necessary to clearly reaffirm that the Church, while deeply respecting the persons in question, (9) cannot admit to the Seminary or to Holy Orders those who practice homosexuality, who present deeply rooted homosexual tendencies or who support the so-called ‘gay culture.[/b]

I concur, if this does become a debate, and it is very close, it needs to be moved to debate.

Edited June 12, 2007 by Veritas

[Veritas]

+

Forgive me if I have misunderstood some of the posts, but I am a little concerned that so many of us have so unreservedly encouraged the religious/priestly vocation to someone with same-sex attractions. The Church has recently spoken very clearly about this. It is an extraordinary situation and must be approached with great caution and in a spirit of great docility and authentic humility before the Church our Lord established. This is not a minor circumstance of someone's being, but a very serious issue.

Edited June 12, 2007 by Veritas

[Veritas]

[quote name='ofpheritup' post='1293621' date='Jun 12 2007, 11:42 AM']She is very wise and very right.

I have spoken to many Vocation Directors over the years and the the answer has always been the same.
Their concern is, can the person entering live chastely, can they live celibately? No matter what the preference.
Can you learn to channel your 'thoughts and energies' into wholesome activities.

I would encourage you not to give up.
If God has a place for you there, He will make a way.[/quote]

+

If you read what the Church has said, you will see that it is a bit more than the ability to live celibately. The Church in her wisdom and charity, has said:

[b]The above-mentioned persons are, in fact, in a situation that seriously hinders a correct relationship with men and women. Nor can the negative tendencies that can derive from the ordination of such persons with deeply rooted homosexual tendencies be overlooked.[/b]

Furthermore, the Church has stated:

[b]In discerning the suitability to ordination, the spiritual director has a very important duty. Even though bound by secrecy, he represents the Church in the internal forum. In his talks with a candidate, the spiritual director must especially remind him of the Church’s demands concerning priestly chastity and the specific affective maturity of the priest, as well as to help him to discern if he has the necessary qualities. (20) He has an obligation to evaluate all qualities of the (candidate’s) personality and to make sure that the candidate does not give evidence of sexual disturbances incompatible with the priesthood. If a candidate practices homosexuality or presents deeply rooted homosexual tendencies, his spiritual director, as well as his confessor, have the duty to dissuade him, in conscience, from proceeding to Ordination.[/b]

Edited June 12, 2007 by Veritas

[Veritas]

+

Double post.

Edited June 12, 2007 by Veritas

[cathoholic_anonymous]

If the 80% figure is correct, the scandal in the USA was very different from the scandal that took root in Britain. But the logic still does not hold up.

Homosexual clergymen gave into homosexual temptations and had homosexual sex. But there are also plenty of heterosexual priests who have given into temptations and initiated relationships with women - but they don't cause anywhere near the same amount of furore. There is a priest in a neighbouring parish who abandoned his vows to marry a secret girlfriend, but it wasn't trumpeted in the newspapers - presumably because the scandal wasn't 'exotic' enough to excite the attention of the press.

Yet both hetero- and homosexual priests have been unfaithful to their vocation and have inflicted damage on their community. There's nothing about being homosexual that makes you less likely to be dedicated to your calling, despite the popular stereotypes. There is a lot about the current structure of seminaries that might make it unreasonably difficult for a seminarian with this particular challenge to cope.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='Veritas' post='1293912' date='Jun 12 2007, 04:31 PM']+

Forgive me if I have misunderstood some of the posts, but I am a little concerned that so many of us have so unreservedly encouraged the religious/priestly vocation to someone with same-sex attractions. The Church has recently spoken very clearly about this. It is an extraordinary situation and must be approached with great caution and in a spirit of great docility and authentic humility before the Church our Lord established. This is not a minor circumstance of someone's being, but a very serious issue.[/quote]
I'm in agreement with Veritas here. This situation must be approached with great caution. The 80% figure also comes immediately to mind. Yes, this was something stated by the USCCB.

I would read all the Church has said on this, pray a lot, and seek advice from a spiritual director.

Also, remember that there are certainly many ways in which to serve the Church, besides priestly or religious orders. There are many forms of single consecrated life also.

[quote name='nunsense' post='1293522' date='Jun 12 2007, 02:03 AM']I am definitely no expert or authority but I would think that sexual attractions are hard for anyone entering the priesthood or religious life. Whether the attraction is heterosexual or same-sex, the problem is still one of temptation of the flesh, and still needs the grace of God to overcome.[/quote]
While this is true, the issue is definitely different with someone with a same-sex attraction because of the fact that generally [u]religious sisters live among religious sisters[/u], and [u]brothers/priests among brothers/priests[/u]. That's what makes the situation so problematical. The welfare of other people and the religious community overall must very much be taken into account also.

[Laurentina1975]

Pedophelia does not equal homosexual.
They are both very different.
Look them up in the dictionary if there is any confusion.

[ofpheritup]

[quote name='Veritas' post='1293905' date='Jun 12 2007, 05:18 PM']+


Again, it is nice that people are offering a lot of opinions and I respect the fact that people are trying to be compassionate, but we have to look at what the Church says about this and not offer false compassion and false hope. The Church in her Divine Wisdom must be our authority in this matter.

I concur, if this does become a debate, and it is very close, it needs to be moved to debate.[/quote]

Discernment is a "form" of debating. This man is asking questions and seeking help figuring out things in his life.
If that qualifies as a debate then Vocation Station needs to be moved. The whole purpose (I thought) was to respond to questions. I'm trying to respond, you don't have to agree with me but I have the right to be heard.....HERE ON VOCATION STATION. So does Ian.

One question I have regarding people's sexual practices. How can ANYONE prove that they are celibate, no matter what their preference? It is a tough thing to prove. We pretty much have to take a person's word for it.

I don't like what I'm seeing, not just here but overall within the Catholic Church when it comes to criteria for people considering the Priesthood or Religious Life. It seems that people are being told if you aren't young, healthy, or oh heaven forbid...perfect we don't want you. Is this "the Church" or is it a Country Club?"

Edited June 13, 2007 by ofpheritup

[Veritas]

[quote name='Laurentina1975' post='1294045' date='Jun 12 2007, 09:46 PM']Pedophelia does not equal homosexual.
They are both very different.
Look them up in the dictionary if there is any confusion.[/quote]

+

If you are referreing to my previous post, please allow me to say:

No one is saying pedophilia =s homosexuality -as far as I can tell. What is being said, is that POST-pubescent males are not children. That, is not pedophilia, that is homosexuality. The media likes to equate the two, but they are very different. This is an important distinction.

Edited June 13, 2007 by Veritas

[Veritas]

[quote name='ofpheritup' post='1294046' date='Jun 12 2007, 09:46 PM']Discernment is a "form" of debating. This man is asking questions and seeking help figuring out things in his life.
If that qualifies as a debate then Vocation Station needs to be moved. The whole purpose (I thought) was to respond to questions. I'm trying to respond, you don't have to agree with me but I have the right to be heard.....HERE ON VOCATION STATION. So does Ian.

One question I have regarding people's sexual practices. How can ANYONE prove that they are celibate, no matter what their preference? It is a tough thing to prove. We pretty much have to take a person's word for it.

I don't like what I'm seeing, not just here but overall within the Catholic Church when it comes to criteria for people considering the Priesthood or Religious Life. It seems that people are being told if you aren't young, healthy, or oh heaven forbid...perfect we don't want you. Is this "the Church" or is it a Country Club?"[/quote]

+

No. Discernment isn't a form of debating, it is a form of right thinking and prudence -it is a matter of weighing a lot of different things in discerning the Holy Spirit. I do believe what is being referred to, is that if we are going to discuss the viability of homosexuals to enter the seminary or priesthood, that should go somewhere else. Because, as the document above clearly states, it has already been decided by the Church. This IS a place to share information, not to debate what is right or wrong.

Your "right" is totally up to dUSt and the guidelines he has created. This is a monarchy.

Finally, the Church realizes that no one is perfect. However, the priesthood is an exceptionally demanding calling. And, because of the position of authority, power, and influence it has, those men need to be exceptionally healthy in mind and reasonably healthy in body for the sake of their own salvation and those that they serve. It can seem difficult to understand at first, but in essence it really is the most compassionate and prudent path for the men themselves and the community. God established the Church as our guide -when we are inclined to differ in our opinion, we must seek to correct ourselves.

Edited June 13, 2007 by Veritas

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='Margaret Clare' post='1294013' date='Jun 12 2007, 07:14 PM']While this is true, the issue is definitely different with someone with a same-sex attraction because of the fact that generally [u]religious sisters live among religious sisters[/u], and [u]brothers/priests among brothers/priests[/u]. That's what makes the situation so problematical. The welfare of other people and the religious community overall must very much be taken into account also.[/quote]
But also this includes, just as much, the welfare of the individual with a same-sex attraction. It would seem much more difficult to overcome this on a daily basis if living in such a religious community or seminary/rectory.

[alicemary]

I would give ANYTHING to have a priest in my parish, I could care less if he was gay, straight, green, or walked on his hands. There are so few priests in southwest virginia that we would welcome with open arms a priest here. My pastor has 3 parishes.
And who are we to judge? There are plenty of homosexual priests in the ranks now. You are what you are. If you can control your sexual urges, be it for same sex or different sex, that is what is important.
And to DARE to equate gays and pedophiles is ridiculous and faulty thinking. They are not the same.

[the lords sheep]

I have two things to say, both of which may be ignored, for it is only mho:

1. Please continue to distinguish the difference between attraction and deeply-rooted tendencies. The Church has made the distinction, so should we.

2. Ian, please know that we here can only give you advice and hope that our words may lead you one step closer to following the will of God, whatever it may be. The best advice we can give is this: find a great spiritual director, one who will listen to you and guide you to the Lord, who will help you to shed some light on what must be an incredibly confusing and frustrating time in your life. We at phatmass can not decide whether or not you have a vocation; it is not our job to do so. Only one who knows you, your story, and your struggles can really help you to know and follow the Lord's will. We can only offer our opinions (which you must accept with prudence and with prayer) and our prayers, which I hope you graciously accept.

You will be in my prayers. If you need help finding a spiritual director in your area, I'm sure we can help you find one, or at least set you on the path to someone who can lead you to one.

May God's Peace be with you,

In Jesus and Mary,
Lauren

[ofpheritup]

[quote name='Veritas' post='1294148' date='Jun 12 2007, 10:01 PM']+
No. Discernment isn't a form of debating, it is a form of right thinking and prudence -it is a matter of weighing a lot of different things in discerning the Holy Spirit. This IS a place to share information, not to debate what is right or wrong[/quote]

Okay, this is scary...."right thinking" and who determines that? You. I don't think so.
The Holy Spirit does help, to a point. You have to be willing to listen.

Yes, I believe that discernment is a form of debating. It all depends on what your personal viewpoint of debate is. You are right this is a place to share information. No one here is "debating" as you perceive it. Why do you feel threatened? Ian asked a question, he is seeking information. We have responded. I don't know what posts you've been reading.

There is a group I believe called COURAGE that men and women from it are joining the religious life.
Oh well.

It isn't that I believe Ian is right or wrong. I don't know, I'm not his judge. The man asked "a simple question."
The reason I am responding as I am is because I don't like bullies. Never have, never will.
The purpose of VS it to have a (safe) place that people can come and ask, without feeling threatened.

I am not content to give "white bread" answers to keep the majority happy.
I am a teacher, if someone asks me a question I am answer them.

I am going to say one last thing Veritas and you can choose to take it how you will.

Do your self a favor and do not join religious life, at least not with the attitude you seem to have today.
This is my thinking and my life experience and I hope it will help you.

I was raised in a LARGE family, 8 kids, and Mom and Dad. I joined a religious community at the age of 15 and left it. The community was hypocritical and I asked the "wrong" questions. Or so I was told. At 18 I joined the Army.

My point is this....people are going to disagree with you, they have that right (funny isn't it.)
Not everyone who sees you coming is going to be happy about it, and that includes religious life.
The people around you are going to express themselves and not care what you think about it.
They shouldn't have to, trust me they are not going to.

Religious life is a "very small world" and all of the personalities in the world are "on display."
How are you going to deal with people that disagree with you? They have as much right to express their opinion as you. Hopefully you will learn to deal a little more charitably (maturely) with them then you have with this.
Only time will tell.