Discernment And Same Sex Attraction

[Ianny01]

Should one who is afflicted with same-sex attraction or other such tendencies even bother considering the priestly or religious vocations?

-Ian

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Ianny01' post='1293512' date='Jun 12 2007, 02:55 PM']Should one who is afflicted with same-sex attraction or other such tendencies even bother considering the priestly or religious vocations?

-Ian[/quote]

I am definitely no expert or authority but I would think that sexual attractions are hard for anyone entering the priesthood or religious life. Whether the attraction is heterosexual or same-sex, the problem is still one of temptation of the flesh, and still needs the grace of God to overcome.

I would definitely discuss it with a spiritual director, but I wouldn't give up thoughts of a vocation just because of this. We are all sinners who need to overcome sin in all its forms. You have my prayers.

[stlmom]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1293522' date='Jun 12 2007, 04:03 AM']I am definitely no expert or authority but I would think that sexual attractions are hard for anyone entering the priesthood or religious life. Whether the attraction is heterosexual or same-sex, the problem is still one of temptation of the flesh, and still needs the grace of God to overcome.

I would definitely discuss it with a spiritual director, but I wouldn't give up thoughts of a vocation just because of this. We are all sinners who need to overcome sin in all its forms. You have my prayers. [/quote]


I agree totally, couldn't have said it any better.

[farglefeezlebut]

Nunsense speaks the truth.

[onlygrace08]

[quote name='farglefeezlebut' post='1293542' date='Jun 12 2007, 08:49 AM']Nunsense speaks the truth.[/quote]

Yep yep! Couldn't have said it better myself!

[Veritas]

[quote name='Ianny01' post='1293512' date='Jun 12 2007, 02:55 AM']Should one who is afflicted with same-sex attraction or other such tendencies even bother considering the priestly or religious vocations?

-Ian[/quote]

+

Actually, the Vatican has spoken on this and there are very clear guidelines. These, are our sure guides. It depends on if they are "deep seated" tendencies or the transient attractions experienced during adolescence.

I refer you to this document entitled "[b]INSTRUCTION CONCERNING THE CRITERIA OF VOCATION DISCERNMENT
REGARDING PERSONS WITH HOMOSEXUAL TENDENCIES IN VIEW OF THEIR ADMISSION TO THE SEMINARY AND TO HOLY ORDERS[/b]" (cf below):
[url="http://www.mfva.info/1/articles/instruction_seminaries.htm"]http://www.mfva.info/1/articles/instruction_seminaries.htm[/url]

And, this "[b]Homosexuals and the Priesthood: Should Ordination Be Mine Because I Want It?[/b]" (cf below):
[url="http://www.mfva.info/1/articles/homosexual_01.htm"]http://www.mfva.info/1/articles/homosexual_01.htm[/url]

[b]Here is the text of the first link:[/b]

[b]INSTRUCTION
CONCERNING THE CRITERIA
OF VOCATION DISCERNMENT
REGARDING PERSONS
WITH HOMOSEXUAL TENDENCIES
IN VIEW OF THEIR ADMISSION
TO THE SEMINARY AND TO HOLY ORDERS

ROME 2005[/b]

[b]INTRODUCTION[/b]
In continuity with the teaching of Vatican Council II and, in particular, with the decree Optatam totius (1) on priestly formation, the Congregation for Catholic Education has published various documents to promote a suitable integral formation of future priests, offering orientations and precise norms on its diverse aspects. (2) In the meantime, the 1990 Synod of Bishops also reflected on priestly formation in current circumstances, with the intention of bringing to fulfillment the conciliar doctrine on this matter and of making it more explicit and incisive in the contemporary world. Following this synod, John Paul II published the Post-synodal Apostolic Exhortation Pastores dabo vobis (3)

In the light of this rich teaching, this current Instruction does not intend to deal with all questions of an affective or sexual nature that call for an attentive discernment during the entire period of formation. It contains norms concerning one particular question, which has been made more urgent by the current situation, and that is, the admission or not to the seminary and to Holy Orders of candidates who have deeply rooted homosexual tendencies.

[b]1. Affective Maturity and Spiritual Paternity[/b]
According to the constant Tradition of the Church, only a baptized male may validly receive holy Ordination. (4) By means of the Sacrament of Orders, the Holy Spirit configures the candidate, in a new and specific title, to Jesus Christ: The priest, in fact, sacramentally represents Christ, Head, Pastor and Spouse of the Church. (5) Because of this configuration to Christ, the entire life of the holy minister must be animated by the giving of his entire person to the Church and by an authentic pastoral charity (6)

The candidate to the ordained ministry, therefore, must reach affective maturity. Such maturity enables him to place himself in a correct relationship with men and women, developing in himself a true sense of spiritual paternity with regards to the ecclesial community entrusted to him. (7)

[b]2. Homosexuality and the Ordained Ministry[/b]
From Vatican Council II to today, various documents of the Magisterium – especially the Catechism of the Catholic Church – have confirmed the teaching of the Church on homosexuality. The Catechism distinguishes between homosexual acts and homosexual tendencies.

Regarding acts, it teaches that, in Sacred Scripture, these are presented as serious sins. Tradition has constantly considered them as intrinsically immoral and contrary to the natural law. Consequently, they can never be approved in any case whatsoever.

For that which concerns deeply rooted homosexual tendencies, as can be seen in a certain number of men and women, these too are objectively disordered and often are a trial for these persons. Such persons must be welcomed with respect and delicacy: every indication of unjust discrimination in their regards must be avoided. They are called to realize the will of God in their lives and to unite the difficulties they might encounter to the Lord’s sacrifice of the Cross. (8)

In the light of this teaching, this dicastery, in accord with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, believes it necessary to clearly reaffirm that the Church, while deeply respecting the persons in question, (9) cannot admit to the Seminary or to Holy Orders those who practice homosexuality, who present deeply rooted homosexual tendencies or who support the so-called ‘gay culture.

The above-mentioned persons are, in fact, in a situation that seriously hinders a correct relationship with men and women. Nor can the negative tendencies that can derive from the ordination of such persons with deeply rooted homosexual tendencies be overlooked.

If, on the other had, it is a question of homosexual tendencies that were only an expression of a passing problem such as, for example, that of an adolescence not yet completed, these must in any case be clearly overcome at least three years before ordination to the diaconate.

[b]3. Discernment of the Suitability of Candidates by the Church[/b]
There are two aspects to every priestly vocation that cannot be separated: the free gift of God and the responsible freedom of man. Vocation is a gift of divine grace, received through the Church, in the Church and for serving the Church. Answering God’s call, a man offers himself freely to Him in love. (11) The desire alone to become a priest is not sufficient, and there is no right to receive Holy Orders. It is up to the Church – in her responsibility to define the necessary requisites for reception of the Sacraments instituted by Christ – to discern the suitability of one who wishes to enter the Seminary, (12) accompanying him during the formation years and calling him to Holy Orders, if he possesses the requisite qualities. (13)

The formation of the future priest must articulate, in an essential complementarity, the four dimensions of formation: human, spiritual, intellectual and pastoral. (14) In this context, what must be underscored is the particular relevance of human formation, the necessary foundation of all formation. (15) To admit a candidate to ordination to the diaconate, the Church must verify, among other things, that the affective maturity of the candidate to the priesthood has been reached. (16)

The call to Orders is the personal responsibility of the Bishop (17) or of the Major Superior. Taking into account the opinion of those to whom the formation has been entrusted, the Bishop or the Major Superior, before admitting a candidate to ordination, must reach a morally certain judgment about his qualities. In the event of a serious doubt in this regard, they must not admit him to ordination. (18)

Discernment about the vocation and the maturity of the candidate is also a serious duty of the rector and other formators in the seminary. Prior to every ordination, the rector must express his judgment on the qualities of the candidate that are requested by the Church. (19)

In discerning the suitability to ordination, the spiritual director has a very important duty. Even though bound by secrecy, he represents the Church in the internal forum. In his talks with a candidate, the spiritual director must especially remind him of the Church’s demands concerning priestly chastity and the specific affective maturity of the priest, as well as to help him to discern if he has the necessary qualities. (20) He has an obligation to evaluate all qualities of the (candidate’s) personality and to make sure that the candidate does not give evidence of sexual disturbances incompatible with the priesthood. If a candidate practices homosexuality or presents deeply rooted homosexual tendencies, his spiritual director, as well as his confessor, have the duty to dissuade him, in conscience, from proceeding to Ordination.

It is understood that the candidate himself is the primary person responsible for his own formation. (21) He must offer himself with trust to the discernment of the Church, of the Bishop who calls to Orders, of the rector of the seminary, of the spiritual director and of the other educators in the Seminary to whom the Bishop or Major Superior has entrusted the duty of forming future priests. It would be gravely dishonest if a candidate should hide his homosexuality in order to attain, notwithstanding everything, Ordination. Such an inauthentic behavior does not correspond to the spirit of truth, loyalty and availability that must mark the personality of one who believes he is called to serve Christ and His Church in the priestly ministry.

[b]CONCLUSION[/b]
This Congregation reiterates the need for Bishops, Major Superiors and all interested parties who have responsibility to undertake an attentive discernment with regards to the suitability of candidates to Holy Orders, from admission to the Seminary up to Ordination. This discernment must be done in the light of a conception of ministerial priesthood in harmony with the teaching of the Church.

Bishops, Episcopal Conferences and Major Superiors should be vigilant so that the norms of this Instruction will be faithfully observed for the good of the candidates themselves and to thus always guarantee the Church suitable priests, true pastors according to the heart of Christ.

[b]The Supreme Pontiff, Benedict XVI, on August 31, 2005, approved this present Instruction and ordered its publication.

Rome, November 4, 2005, Memory of St. Charles Borromeo, patron of Seminaries.[/b]



Zenon Card. Grocholewski,

Prefetto

J. Michael Miller, C.S.B.

Titular Arch. of Vertara

Secretary


[b]Here is the text of the second link:[/b]

[b]Homosexuals and the Priesthood:
Should ordination be mine because I want it?[/b]

16 July 2005

by Joshua R. LeBlanc

I have been increasingly agitated at various blogs that have chosen to believe that their word must be the divine Word of God and that all of their desires and wants are divinely inspired.

In doing so they have chosen to use their blogs to further their political agenda and spread odious fallacies. Do not misunderstand me; I am not a person who believes that labels are useless. I believe, and rightly so, that labels help us to identify who we are, where we fit into the whole grand scheme of things. We label ourselves Catholic to differentiate ourselves from other Christians who chose to reject portions of the historical teachings of Christ and his Church (this is a fact, not a jab at non-Catholics.) I do however have a problem with individuals, who erroneously claim the Church to be a bigot and the Pope to be “rooted in the exclusionary tendencies of the Roman Catholic Church across the ages.” To make such a statement is egregiously wrong.

To these individuals I say “get your facts straight before you start making accusations and claims!” One particular blogger, whom I will not name out of Christian charity, can never make up his mind on any subject. One day he is claiming that he accepts the teaching Magisterium of the Church, the next day he is shooting off at the mouth about Her as though he were a loose cannon! This type of display is schizophrenic at best and deliberately tyrannical at worst.

So as not to divert from the real subject from this post, I will make my point and get on with it. Individuals who make claims against the Church do so on three levels: Emotion, Personal Desire, and Certitude of Position.

[b]Emotion[/b]

The individual I mention above’s entire argument that the Church is a bigot is based primarily on the fact that the Church is soon to release a document banning homosexuals from the priesthood of Jesus Christ. This particular individual believes he has a call to the priesthood and because of this, the Church is a bigot.I’d be very weary of making such a claim against an entity that has been around approximately 100 times longer than I have! Let’s get some facts straight about the Church and the Calling to the priesthood. As individuals we don’t call ourselves to the priesthood nor do we discern alone, we discern a possible call to the priesthood. As the Church that Jesus Christ founded, it is the Church’s responsibility to discern if an individual is indeed being called to the Priesthood or not. This call is never one that is decided by the individual, but by Jesus Christ himself through the ministry of the Church. Therefore, those who would claim “I am called to the priesthood but the Church won’t ordain me” are advocating fallacy and ignorance.


What is the practicality of barring homosexual men in the priesthood? For those of you who are unaware, I was a seminarian for 4 years discerning a call to the priesthood. In my four years of living in a seminary community, I have learned the practical reasons for barring homosexuals from the priesthood. In my early years, I even advocated that homosexual men should be allowed to be priests as long as they were celibate. My position has since changed.

I have learned that for many homosexual men that seminary has become somewhat of a haven, a place to “hide out” per se from the problems of the world. I would presume that many homosexual men who enter seminary enter with honest intentions – to presume otherwise is simply arrogance. I believe they want to truly live a celibate lifestyle, but for whatever reason many leave because they initially believe the problem will go away but find out that it doesn’t. I know this for a fact and have seen it with my own eyes. Some of my seminary brothers were indeed homosexual men and even to this day I consider some of them friends. I have learned that three different things happen to homosexuals when they enter the seminary. They either leave because they learn that being celibate is too difficult when you are constantly around other men, get kicked out because they have failed to remain celibate with others or they slip under radar, get ordained and don’t become very integrated individuals, therefore causing problems in the Church somewhere down the line – whether that be in inappropriate relationships or with regard to Church teaching. This is the case about 99% of the time. The 1% of men who don’t fall into this category do make good priests, but they will tell you it is very difficult to leave in a rectory with other priests. It is not this 1% that I am concerned about, but the 99% that have caused the church to be racked with sex abuse scandals and financial woes over the past thirty years. There are also those who will claim that it isn’t a problem for two homosexual men to live in a rectory together. This is nothing more than turning a blind eye. To assume this, one would also have to assume that a young couple could cohabitate and abstain from sexual relations. We all know this to not be the case.

As a heterosexual former seminarian, I will tell you it is also very difficult to discern a vocation when you have those homosexual men around you who aren’t committed to celibacy and are indeed fornicating with each other as though no one else knows about it. (As a side note I will not fault the administration of the particular seminary I attended for this sort of behavior. They did not know about it and when it did come to light these individuals were explicated.) It truly created a culture where those men who were heterosexual (and faithful to celibacy) were the minority and felt like odd men out. Is this the way that we promote vocations to the priesthood? This is sort of the same kind of phenomena you find going on in parishes these days where the number of altar boys is dwindling due to an increase of female altar servers. From this standpoint alone barring homosexuals from the priesthood is practical and not only is it practical – it’s actually vocation promoting for those men who are really dedicated to celibacy and Church teaching (not their own interpretation of it!)

Now that we’ve looked at the practical aspect, let’s look at some other issues regarding this blogger’s apparent enmity for the Catholic Church and the Pope.

[b]Personal Desire[/b]

How does personal desire fit into the picture? When did we ever get the idea that when it comes to the commandments, laws, etc. of Christ and his Church that God gives a beaver dam about what individuals want? If, as Paul says in his first letter to Timothy, the “Church is the Pillar and Bulwark of Truth,” then why do individuals constantly find it necessary to shoot off at the mouth as though he/she is the anointed Apostle of God and all knowledge comes through them? Let’s get something straight -- the Church is infallible in her teachings and the Pope is infallible in matters of faith and morals. As individuals, the only thing we can be infallible in is the certitude of death and taxes – and even the second one is debatable..

The point I make is that Christ promised us he would be with us always, even until the end of time. Not through ourselves, but through the Church. When it comes to making a choice between “Catholics” like Frances Kissling, who are place themselves on pedestals of assumed authority or the true Pope, His Holiness Benedict XVI, most Catholics are going to err on the side of an individual who is anointed as the Vicar of Christ rather than the head of a make-believe Catholic organization that hasn’t gotten a dime in private Catholic donations in years!
[b]
Certitude of Position[/b]

The only way one could make such a preposterous claim that the Church is a bigot is because of assumed certitude that their modern day thoughts are the correct ones and that the Church’s teaching for the past 2000 years has been fabricated. It is highly suspect here as to whose position is the incorrect one.The problem in all of this lies in original sin, the sin of Adam, the sin of pride. We have placed our ideas, our thoughts and our wants up on the same pedestal as the commands of God the Most High. Let’s remember humility and deference to God, His Church, and His Vicar – Pope Benedict XVI! Simply becoming a member of a different religion doesn’t solve this problem. It is beyond understand why someone would choose to leave the Catholic Church, who choose to leave the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist for reasons based on pride. Let’s try adhering to the words of St. John “He must increase, I must decrease” Jn. 3:30.If you want to complain about the Church and its bigotries towards homosexuals, I suggest first reading the former Cardinal Ratzinger’s document on “On the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons.” We then have to ask ourselves the importation question: Is the Church homophobic or are those members who disagree with Her heterophobic? You be the judge.

Joshua R. LeBlanc is the president of cyberCatholics.com.
This article is adapted from one that appeared on the website of cyberCatholics.com and is used by permission of the author, Joshua R. Leblanc

Edited June 12, 2007 by Veritas

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1293522' date='Jun 12 2007, 10:03 AM']I am definitely no expert or authority but I would think that sexual attractions are hard for anyone entering the priesthood or religious life. Whether the attraction is heterosexual or same-sex, the problem is still one of temptation of the flesh, and still needs the grace of God to overcome.

I would definitely discuss it with a spiritual director, but I wouldn't give up thoughts of a vocation just because of this. We are all sinners who need to overcome sin in all its forms. You have my prayers. [/quote]

[quote name='farglefeezlebut' post='1293542' date='Jun 12 2007, 02:49 PM']Nunsense speaks the truth.[/quote]

Annie, I applaud your charity and your wisdom.

Having just read the excerpts that Veritas posted, I can't see anything there to contradict the advice that you gave.

[Ianny01]

Thanks for the information and help. I'm especially relieved as to the distinction between deep seated tendencies and otherwise. I'll just have to deal with being that 1 percent the second article talks about.

Yours in Christ,
Ian

[cathoholic_anonymous]

The second article is not a Vatican document. It is based on one man's personal experience. He may believe that homosexuality is the primary root of paedophilic scandals in the Church; I do not. Perhaps this is because I have come into contact with too many young people who were abused by paedophiles. I know the truth of the evidence put forward by the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children: that the majority of paedophiles a.) are married men and b.) abuse their own children.

It is not accurate to blame the sex abuse scandals on homosexual clergy alone. Homosexual clergy may have participated, but it wasn't exclusively their fault and they certainly weren't alone in doing what they did.

[ofpheritup]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1293522' date='Jun 12 2007, 03:03 AM']I am definitely no expert or authority but I would think that sexual attractions are hard for anyone entering the priesthood or religious life. Whether the attraction is heterosexual or same-sex, the problem is still one of temptation of the flesh, and still needs the grace of God to overcome.

I would definitely discuss it with a spiritual director, but I wouldn't give up thoughts of a vocation just because of this. We are all sinners who need to overcome sin in all its forms. You have my prayers. [/quote]

She is very wise and very right.

I have spoken to many Vocation Directors over the years and the the answer has always been the same.
Their concern is, can the person entering live chastely, can they live celibately? No matter what the preference.
Can you learn to channel your 'thoughts and energies' into wholesome activities.

I would encourage you not to give up.
If God has a place for you there, He will make a way.

Edited June 12, 2007 by ofpheritup

[kafka]

[quote name='Ianny01' post='1293512' date='Jun 12 2007, 02:55 AM']Should one who is afflicted with same-sex attraction or other such tendencies even bother considering the priestly or religious vocations?

-Ian[/quote]

Absolutely NOT

[farglefeezlebut]

[quote name='kafka' post='1293653' date='Jun 12 2007, 06:09 PM']Absolutely NOT[/quote]

Please explain why you think this.

[EJames]

hmm, dont feel i can reply to this here... this may have to move to the debate forum?

Edited June 12, 2007 by EJames

[kafka]

[quote name='kafka' post='1293653' date='Jun 12 2007, 12:09 PM']Absolutely NOT[/quote]

I think its pretty much self explanatory. Where have you been the last 10 years?

[ofpheritup]

[quote name='Ianny01' post='1293512' date='Jun 12 2007, 01:55 AM']Should one who is afflicted with same-sex attraction or other such tendencies even bother considering the priestly or religious vocations?

-Ian[/quote]

To Ian let me say I respect your honesty.

Let me say to Kafka you are fooling yourself if you think Ian is the first one asking.
I was in a community in 1974 and nothing was discussed outright but Ian is not struggling with anything new.

As far as moving this....why? His question is a part of his discernment. Vocation Director's deal with this question all the time.

I believe this discussion belongs here. We are not here just to discuss whatever makes us comfortable. How is this a "debate?" Someone has asked a question regarding religious life/priesthood. Sorry if the way they are asking doesn't make you happy, but this isn't about you.

This site should be here for EVERYONE who is discerning whatever they are discerning. Not just the things that we agree on or understand. We are all on different journeys. No one has the right to say that his is any less valid.

Ian is not looking to DEBATE he is sincerely asking questions.
Someday you may be the Vocation Director how do you plan on responding with someone asking the same questions?

What Would Jesus Do?

Edited June 12, 2007 by ofpheritup