Political Systems/society And The Church

[Budge]

[quote]Talk about "fornication with kings" - sounds like you're advocating fornication with Hillary Clinton! (A thought which never particularly appealed to me personally.)[/quote]

Socrates, if my arguments are going WOOSH right over your head THAT bad that you think Im a Democrat just because I dont support your Dominionist visions, I probably shouldnt even bother with a response.

I dont support EITHER of the TWO parties, how many times have I written that.

Your attempt to shove me in the liberal Democrat box is LAME.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1300965' date='Jun 24 2007, 10:14 PM']Socrates, if my arguments are going WOOSH right over your head THAT bad that you think Im a Democrat just because I dont support your Dominionist visions, I probably shouldnt even bother with a response.

I dont support EITHER of the TWO parties, how many times have I written that.

Your attempt to shove me in the liberal Democrat box is LAME.[/quote]
As is your labeling me a "Dominionist" and a "theocratic fascist" because I'm pro-life and against the "gay" political agenda, and the radical secularist agenda which seeks to forcibly remove any acknowlegment of God from American public life.

As someone else said, this is a discussion about the ideal political system. Kindly take your name-calling and anti-Catholic Jack Chick conspiracy nonsense elsewhere.

Edited June 26, 2007 by Socrates

[Budge]

Socrates, trying to insuinate I am pro-abortion and pro gay isnt going to work here.

You missed my point, you think you use the govt to MAKE PEOPLE BE GOOD. I know from my UU days that abortion will continue without a hitch, even if they make it illegal tommorow. The gays are going to continue with what they are doing as well.

Heres a quote for you:

[quote]We are not here to “Christianize” our culture or to “culturalize our Christianity,” but “to seek and to save that which was lost.” True Christianity can have a great impact on societies and cultures, but we must steer clear of the heresy that misleads us into believing that we can have “heaven on earth.”[/quote]

[url="http://oursovereignjoy.blogspot.com/2007/04/dsouza-islam-and-american-culture.html"]http://oursovereignjoy.blogspot.com/2007/0...an-culture.html[/url]

Youre a smart guy, think this out....

[Anthony]

[quote name='Budge' post='1302025' date='Jun 26 2007, 10:00 AM']Socrates, trying to insuinate I am pro-abortion and pro gay isnt going to work here.

You missed my point, you think you use the govt to MAKE PEOPLE BE GOOD. I know from my UU days that abortion will continue without a hitch, even if they make it illegal tommorow. The gays are going to continue with what they are doing as well.

Heres a quote for you:



[url="http://oursovereignjoy.blogspot.com/2007/04/dsouza-islam-and-american-culture.html"]http://oursovereignjoy.blogspot.com/2007/0...an-culture.html[/url]

Youre a smart guy, think this out....[/quote]


Why do you keep bringing up the UU carp? If you are no longer affiliated with it then leave it where you left it. Don't bring it here. Your arguments are pointless and kind of rediculous. You are wasting your time. Just because you believe that homosexuality and abortion are so prevalent these days that we shouldn't do anything to rid the world of these evils. Ye of little faith. You are definitely taking a relativists view on the issue. You are ignorant of the truth, but yet you act like you have the fullness of the truth. Sorry to say, but you gave that up. We'll keep praying for you though. Good try Budgey. Your arguments don't stand up here. Try doing research. Maybe you should actually read the Bible. Heaven forbid you should ever try that.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1302025' date='Jun 26 2007, 09:00 AM']Socrates, trying to insuinate I am pro-abortion and pro gay isnt going to work here.

You missed my point, you think you use the govt to MAKE PEOPLE BE GOOD. I know from my UU days that abortion will continue without a hitch, even if they make it illegal tommorow. The gays are going to continue with what they are doing as well.

Heres a quote for you:



[url="http://oursovereignjoy.blogspot.com/2007/04/dsouza-islam-and-american-culture.html"]http://oursovereignjoy.blogspot.com/2007/0...an-culture.html[/url]

Youre a smart guy, think this out....[/quote]
Truth be told, I'm getting rather sick of you telling me what "I think."

It was you who insinuated that I am a "Dominionist" and a "fascist" because I believe the law should protect innocent human life and should not give support to homosexual immorality.

If you are saying that I am wrong to support pro-life measures, or to oppose "gay-rights" legislation, then your position on this matter is no different than that of the liberal Dems, whether you identify yourself as such or not.

As for legislation being able to "force everybody to be good" or bring about "heaven on earth," those are your words, not mine.

Until you can address what I've actually said, rather than just attacking straw-man positions which I have not advocated, then it is pointless to continue responding.

[Budge]

Politically you are unable to think outside the right/left box. Everyone a liberal Dem who doesnt agree with you.

Actually I consider you the liberal if you are still voting for the Jacobean, sell our nation out, open borders Republicans.

You have not "understood" anything I have brought up.

I have told you I am against abortion but because of things I know even if they make it illegal it is not going to be stopped. They have the pills, tech and more to make the laws meaningless, they do not have to go back to then hangers and backalley anymore even RU-486 has changed that.

I am against gay marriage but I have always found that to be a non-issue because a) Most gays are not monogomous nor do they wish to emulate hetero forms of marriage, and b) they can go get a lawyer if they want the inheritance of assets and power of attorney to continue.

Really I expected better of you Socrates. It seems mentally you would have been capable of exploring more nuance political viewpoints and actions beyond the nightly TV news.

[123]

First things first, the harassment of the signature on your post is starting to get old. You lost that debate along time ago, I know I was there. Secondly, political debate does not settle well when you try to attach religion connotation's to it. The "duh" part of this debate is that the title Republican and Democrat are, in reality, foolish. We are labeling group of human beings who won't stop their petty debating on how they think American should be run. Modern Christians are totally and completely oblivious to the fact that they're faith and belief is being used in the political race, for votes. For years modern Christians have prided themselves on one thing, Republicanism, not faith, hope, or love, but the Republican party. This is a stereotype, but modern Evangelical Christians are willing to embrace that.

Jesus Camp one of the newer religious movies out that shows how much Modern Christians have their hands in Political mud. Ted Haggard one of the leaders of the, mostly Pentecostal, summer camp these children stay at during the film has this to say about politics:


Ted Haggard: If the evangelicals vote, they determine the election.

Not only are blending the political and religious ideologies but, they are feeding this blended concoctions to children as young as 5 years old.

Not only didn't this movie rave in offensive accusations against other people of other faiths, cultures, and lifestyles. It just separated them into 2 categories. People who love Jesus and people who don't. They missed one, people who don't about the help that Christianity can give them.

Personally, I stay away from political threads and debates, its been a long time since I have been on one here. Reason being is that we all have normal political views, and ones that others consider crackpot and stupid. To me politics are a waste of precious time, when we could furthering the truth and helping people that need our help, not George W. Bush, I could care less about him.

[Budge]

When I talk about thinking outside the box, your post is an example.

1. I am not a Republican. {not every fundamentalist or evangelical out there is a sychopant to the supposed "God" party.

2. I am not a Democrat either.

3. I do not support Ted Haggard, who when he held his ministry was one of the worse offenders considering Dominionism and church and state marriage out there.

Edited June 27, 2007 by Budge

[kujo]

So what does all of this stuff have to do with the original question?

Budge, what, in your opinion, would be the ideal political system in a country trying to attain eternal life?

[Budge]

America had the ideal political system until recently, when free people including Christians kept the govt accountable, we are sinking into totalitarianism now with the constitution almost mostly gone.

No one attains eternal life via politics, it is an individual matter.

The reason things are going so bad in our country is fewer and fewer individual Christians following God's commandments and holding biblical values to keep the govt accountable.

[kujo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1303334' date='Jun 27 2007, 03:31 PM']America had the ideal political system until recently, when free people including Christians kept the govt accountable, we are sinking into totalitarianism now with the constitution almost mostly gone.

No one attains eternal life via politics, it is an individual matter.

The reason things are going so bad in our country is fewer and fewer individual Christians following God's commandments and holding biblical values to keep the govt accountable.[/quote]

Agreed. The deterioration of our civil liberties is troublesome; however, in some cases, I think it's warranted due to our need for security.

And I think you might've misunderstood my comment about working towards eternal life. I was just using that as a euphemism for Christians. [i]Mia culpa[/i].

Finally, in regards to your comment about Christians not following God's commandments, I ask you what your views are on how much we, the Christian electorate, can work towards having the government pass legislation that is in line with our Christian values. Basically, what is the line between Christian-voting and what you have frequently-referred to as "dominionism?"

[Budge]

[quote]in some cases, I think it's warranted due to our need for security.[/quote]

Sure by now youve heard the sayingt...those who give up liberty for security, deserve neither...

I agree with that saying.

The war on terror is really about global elites grabbing power, didnt you all learn anything from those two NWO-warners who were here during one of my breaks, they got some things right even if I disagreed with them on others.

When one is a Christian voting, they do not compromise, they do not believe in church and state joining together with each other in ones back pocket nor in ministers sold out to political interests. I dont vote anymore for any election above dog catcher and town mayor the rest are all sold out, and Id be compromising principles to vote for any of the corrupt ones on top. Many Christians have sold out, pure and simple, and all the evangelicals who defend torture via "God's party" and who treated presidents and politicians like they were a wannabe Messiah, even deeply flawed individuals needed to get a clue.

so it isnt just you folks-the Catholics who have the church of Dominionsim---the Popes all doing speeches at the UN and all those Cardinals advancing the UNs socialist Millennium Directives but those like Rick Warren hooked up with the UN and all the sold out Christians who threw away everything in the Bible to follow after these piped pipers of politics. By the way they use abortion and being again gay rights as a screen and to fog the issues. Its both left and Right, Wallis to Robertson and its disgusting.

Robertson I read even the other day is now shilling for Guilani---who supports abortion.

Politics always corrupts the church and any church joined with the state becomes rotten.

[kujo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1303360' date='Jun 27 2007, 03:49 PM']Sure by now youve heard the sayingt...those who give up liberty for security, deserve neither...

I agree with that saying.

The war on terror is really about global elites grabbing power, didnt you all learn anything from those two NWO-warners who were here during one of my breaks, they got some things right even if I disagreed with them on others.

When one is a Christian voting, they do not compromise, they do not believe in church and state joining together with each other in ones back pocket nor in ministers sold out to political interests. I dont vote anymore for any election above dog catcher and town mayor the rest are all sold out, and Id be compromising principles to vote for any of the corrupt ones on top. Many Christians have sold out, pure and simple, and all the evangelicals who defend torture via "God's party" and who treated presidents and politicians like they were a wannabe Messiah, even deeply flawed individuals needed to get a clue.

so it isnt just you folks-the Catholics who have the church of Dominionsim---the Popes all doing speeches at the UN and all those Cardinals advancing the UNs socialist Millennium Directives but those like Rick Warren hooked up with the UN and all the sold out Christians who threw away everything in the Bible to follow after these piped pipers of politics. By the way they use abortion and being again gay rights as a screen and to fog the issues. Its both left and Right, Wallis to Robertson and its disgusting.

Robertson I read even the other day is now shilling for Guilani---who supports abortion.

Politics always corrupts the church and any church joined with the state becomes rotten.[/quote]

Thank you for sharing. Can't say I agree with what you say, based on my religious beliefs as well as the fact that I am a political science major, but I do appreciate your candor.

Edited June 27, 2007 by kujo