Abortion

[littleflower+JMJ]

I don't think so. I just hold respecting others higher than imposing my will on them. But since you know the Truth, you're willing impose your Truth/will on everyone.

again. are you christian? catholic? if so you follow the ten commandments.

as for "Imposing" how are you imposing if you are only sharing truth for the good of everyone?

remember what did Jesus come into this world? TO IMPOSE. on all our wrong doing, on our sin, our evil ways, and SHOWED us the TRUTH. we are CALLED to

do the same.

jesus didn't come to be soft and not impose, "only if you want". no ma'am. in fact, God himself gave us the ten commandments, their not suggestions, their not recommendations, their demands, that as people of God, we need to follow. and even those who may not know.

if i knew that a gun was loaded but didn't tell anyone and someone came and shot themselves with it unknowingly that it was loaded because i FAILED to tell them, and it was their "choice/right' to go and pick it up, im' suppose to let that happen? and stand there silent? dare i impose? i dont think so. cuz as ppl who know the truth, it is our responsiblity to bring it to others.

and if we do help, by not imposing or helping, we too have taken part in the crime an evil sin. the blood will be upon our hands too, for we know better and failed to share it .

this whole rigth thing about abortion doesnt' hold water, when did we become able to determine whether another human being lived or died? are we higher than God? for God is the one who GAVE us LIFE, therefore, ONLY He can take it away. to be able to murder a unborn baby through cutting him/her up out of the womb, poisoning them until they burn to death or vaccuuming out of the mother's womb piece by piece all while they are ALIVE is no one's right!!

we have God-given rights but with all things there are limitations and it is only through Laws that we are able to live in a order and non-chaotic world. this is where the ten commandments come in. it is in God's laws and obedience taht we are able to TRULY recieve the FREEDOM.

and it is there, where we will find freedom.

"and the truth shall set you free"

God bless and may the love and truth of Christ be among us all, to be the light to the world........and may us, the salt, never lose its flavor.

+JMJ

[littleflower+JMJ]

That was probably your mind starting to open to new ideas and you didn't know what was going on. Maybe you started to see validity to homosexual unions(edited by foundsheep)But thanks Jas Jis. So far you've been the most enlightening person here. And your style of communication is superb... what with the what the heck am i babbling about to the DING DING to this. Truly an admirable Christian attitude that we can all learn and benefit from.

actually no. its cuz what your saying doesn't make sense.

we're open to ideas, in fact ideas are nice but when it contradicts truth and LIFE then its wrong..

truth doesn't change like the weather. its forever truth. and it is ONLY in truth where we can truly be set FREE.

"and the truth shall set you free"

God bless,

+JMJ

*caps not to yell but just to emphasize*

[IcePrincessKRS]

Very good, very gracious answers Flowery.

Dairy, please refrain from making insinuations about people's sexuality. It was entirely unfounded and untrue. jasJis is happily married with a couple of lovely teenage daughters (2? 3? Sorry jas, I forget!).

[jasJis]

That was probably your mind starting to open to new ideas and you didn't know what was going on. Maybe you started to see validity to homosexual unions {edited by foundsheep}.

But thanks Jas Jis. So far you've been the most enlightening person here. And your style of communication is superb... what with the what the heck am i babbling about to the DING DING to this. Truly an admirable Christian attitude that we can all learn and benefit from.

Couple of things.

I felt I was being funny with an edge. People who know me both here and in analog life tell me I come off too serious on PhatMass. It's hard to type in a laugh and a touch on the shoulder when typing.

I actually like your response about opening my mind up. That's funny. In reality, I have very close friends and family that are gay. They are family (including my firend) and are loved and respected by me, my wife, and my 2 daughters. I respect and love them for who they are, not the sexual orientation, which I consider as only a small part, and no different than my own shortcomings.

My babble comment was a pointedly humorous reference to my perception that you don't make sense, you aren't logical, and you ignore what other people comment and say. That's babble in a debate phorum.

DING, DING, DING, DING is nothing but funny stuff. We were agreeing, and what you posted was a great idea and I wanted to bring attention to it.

The quivering brain comment was rolling in my mind for a few days after reading your posts. I do have difficulty following your train of thought and comprehending solid logic. I thought it was alot less pointed, and made the point but indicated maybe it was my cerebral shortcoming as the fault.

In my frail and human opinion:

I don't see consitent logic in your posts. You regularly ignore other's posts with rigid and close minded commitment to your opinion. You are hypocritical in that you rail against other's rigidity, and blindly wallow in your own. You don't communicate in a manner that makes sense to me.

Is it nicer to say it in a joking manner, or bluntly? :sadder:

[dairygirl4u2c]

Well, I would have to say the same to you:

I don't see consitent logic in your posts. You regularly ignore other's posts with rigid and close minded commitment to your opinion. You are hypocritical in that you rail against other's rigidity, and blindly wallow in your own. You don't communicate in a manner that makes sense to me.

I admit I don't make myself clear at times. But you communicate your post somewhat vaquely too. Your underlying notion is that you are following the Truth of the natural law, but that is the very notion I am trying to resist. To be clear, I mean I am resisting your notion of the natual law. The natural law must be followed, I agree. But frankly I just think you're wrong about it. So to something substanitive that you are avoiding specifically.

I have faith that I am right that the baby is at all times a person.. or if it doesn't have soul like many theologians argue even to this day.. at least should be treated like one. (http://www.thevoicenews.com/News/2002/0614/In_Response/002.html) This site says the Catholic Church always taught that abortion was wrong but not always taught that it was murder. I still wonder because I'm pretty sure that some theologians still don't think that babies have souls at all times, yet insist that at all times that abortion is murder. (either something doesn't add up or we're gonna hafta define murder too)

But anyway I *understand* other people's dissent from my faith that a three celled baby is a person. (someone with a soul) I am not simply falling subservient to their whimsical claims as you may think because I truly understand their point and think it a valid stance.

Are you going to superficially limit infringemnt to what you personally can know and understand?

The very fact that you insinuate that I'm superficially limiting what I know makes me think you aren't listening to me. Cuz now the very thing you've been ignoring that I have been repeatedly saying: I value democratic freedom/freedom when there is a compelling dispute above human life. (human life meaning both at best a souless baby and at worst a baby with a soul) If it were the other way around, I would impose my view of abortion on women.

But I do value this type of freedom and even argue that this is the natural law. I've said many times that if you don't think it is understandable for a woman to dissent, that is your perogative and right. But I disagree don't know to think otherwise... but I am here because I am willing to find out if I have my priorities messed up. I would hope that you too would consider my concepts of consideration, freedom, and my take on true democracy.

I think we'll have to probably agree to disagree but so far we haven't really talked much about anything I've been wanting to. ie true democracy. (in the civil unions section we are somewhat but not so much here)

Edited February 14, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[littleflower+JMJ]

if your freedom dairygirl is going to allow 43,461,893 unborn babies be murdered to this day, and means more and more each day who are defenseless to die from their mothers' womb...........

is that what you call freedom? is that freedom to you? that you speak of?

for every baby murdered through abortion is a child never born. and a mother, father and family forever scarred, victimized and tramatized who will never heal.

abortion leaving society losing out as a whole from a baby who never got to live, who died because of someone's "choice........

leaving everything we know damaged, hurt, destroyed and corrupted, teaching us to hate, not love. to kill, not live. to do evil, not good.

if your freedom calls for killing unborn children, murdering them, and taking the life of others, then you fail to understand what freedom is.

God bless,

+JMJ

[littleflower+JMJ]

but I am here because I am willing to find out if I have my priorities messed up.

if one believes that a unborn baby that is defenseless in his/her's mothers womb can be murdered because one would rather not impose and let ppl kill their children through abortion, and doesn't help save the millions of babies murdered for the sake of "not imposing", then their priorites are messed up.

life is sacred. it is not something to be taken lightly. those babies have no voice, they are defenseless. its up to you and me to fight against this evil we know as abortion.

"for there is no greater love than this, to lay down one's life for another"

i am praying for you dairygirl.

God bless,

+JMJ

[dairygirl4u2c]

Even though you don't address my posts throughly, I didn't address your post throughly either, I admit it. So anyway.

Some people are biologically pre-disposed to alcholholism. Being an alcoholic is not natural.

So by your logic, even if they're not hurting anyone else, we should not allow alcholics to drink too much because that is not following the natural law.

Or anyway, yes biological homosexuals are exceptions... but that doesn't mean that we not allow them marriage in the civil government because they are humans with democratic rights to be considered.

For example: "So what if a woman or man choose to be a prostitute?

Are you implying that abortions would be similar to prostitution in that bad things can happen to society as consequences? I assume that is what you are implying since you didn't state explicitly what your point was.

Things can have bad consequences. But anything that is abused can have bad consequences. And these are the exceptions. You can't impose your will for exceptions or else we will have to ban riding roller coasters because people might die.

(and yes homosexuals are exceptions, but they are also humans. And that means they are entitled to human rights because of the moral natural law of consideration of others)

And for those who argue morality for moralities sake, you can't impose your will just for the sake of "morality" if you want to follow the moral law of democracy.

Edited February 14, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[jmjtina]

:wall:

by your logic, you are imposing on us and being hypocritical.

dairygirl, how old are you and what religion are you?

btw, stay on topic, there's another thread about homosexuals, so post that over there. homosexual marriages are a direct attack on the family. Abortion is an attack on freedom and life.

[littleflower+JMJ]

And for those who argue morality for moralities sake, you can't impose your will just for the sake of "morality" if you want to follow the moral law of democracy.

moral law of democracy? :shame:

<excuse me whil i go into sacrasm mode to get my point across>

oh! *slaps forehead* thats the problem!! its morals!

hmm..lets see.........

morals are what keep us from becoming like animals,

morals are what keep us from killing each other,

morals are what keep order and peace,

morals are what keep society from being chaotic

morals are what we need to define what is right and what is wrong,

morals are what keep us from falling, having it as our foundation,

morals are what hold civilization from collasping.....

<please note sacrasm>

who needs morals? we dont need morals! morals dont matter!! <sacrasm>

forget that we're talking about millions of lives here being murdered -_-

throw out morals out the window and what do you get?

you get to do whatever you want, even if it means, killing another human being.

if you think its okay, its okay! whatever floats your boat.

<sacrasm> yeah, morals is the problem, it what keeps us from doing wrong, and thats whats wrong. <sacrasm>

*************

i really hate writing like that but i had to cuz thats what your saying dairygirl, and thats what your telling us. -_-

morals isn't the problem, its the SOLUTION.

we need morals, its what defines our behavior and actions.

a society that throws morals out the window is one that will fall, for nothing can not last long without order.

just becuse peeps think something is okay, doesn't make it okay.

morals are what guide us, you throw out the map to your destination, and your officially lost.

i praying for ya.

God bless,

+JMJ

[dairygirl4u2c]

I'll just assume you don't think it's understandable for me to think it's understandable for women to think a 3 celled person is not a person. If that's what you want to say, then say it, and we'll agree to disagree. Otherwise, I don't think anyone's listening to me...

But I'll continue.

by your logic, you are imposing on us and being hypocritical.

Explain.

[VeraMaria]

Your awsome Tina!

word

[VeraMaria]

Priests for Life

Great pictures (America will not reject Abortion until America sees abortion) and great information!

Roe Vs. Wade

amesome site!

Life Dynamics

Life Dynamics is great...doing work, reports and studies. This one is a must to go to. Check it out.

Virtue Media

great ads......download some.

National Right to Life

Silent Scream.org

The true horror of abortion

Couple to Couple Leage---Natural Family Planning

amesome links tina.

Thank you.

[VeraMaria]

I just read all 8 pages of this debate. It just seems to be going in circles.

Basically, dairygirl, you seem to be saying that by oposing abortion we're forcing the 10 comandments on people.

Ok, the 10 comandments are based on common human basic morality. You can be an atheist and understand that depriving someone of life by murder is wrong. Just wrong.

So stating that murder is wrong is not forcing your beliefs on anyone.

As for personal freedom being more important than LIFE......WHAT??

Everything revolves around LIFE. If there wasn't LIFE there would be no "personal freedom", democracy, etc. Everything begins with Life and ends with Life (I mean that Life is the only reason we're here and have the opportunity to talk about this).

LIFE decides Personal Freedom, Democracy, etc. Personal Freedom, Democracy, etc. don't decide LIFE.

OK, I'm just echoing what all these wonderful people said before me. But this is just going in circles and seems to come back to a question of basic human RIGHT and WRONG.

God Bless!

(Sorry if I mess up on words, I;m not too gifted in getting y point across and learned english only 3 years ago).

[jmjtina]

I'll just assume you don't think it's understandable for me to think it's understandable for women to think a 3 celled person is not a person.

Understandably, I'll just assume you don't think it's understandable for me to think it's understandable for you to think a "3 celled person" is life and worth telling those who are "ignorant".