Maritial Intimacy

[Laudate_Dominum]

anyway, i know. this just illustrates early Christian beliefs, it is by no means infallible, but these are the explanations of people who were closer to the time of Mary and Jesus, closer to the culture of the time of Mary and Jesus... it pulls a lil weight that way

No worries Al, I figured you knew this. I was just making the clarification for the sake of any protestant brethren who might otherwise get the wrong idea.

Peace brother.

[cmotherofpirl]

Yep, we know you know, but we don't always know what anybody else knows. :cyclops:

[littleflower+JMJ]

i think what we all needs to be reminded is that like others mentioned before but deservers to be said again cuz thats the whole thing is that the Blessed Mother had made a vow of chasity and had given her virginity to God and St. Joseph made a vow to God too. thats why marriage was so scary for both of them, but within that marriage they kept that vow that had each gave themselves completely to God and helped each other in marriage, God was first in their hearts, they loved God more than anything and they trusted God. they did not become weaker, they became stronger to their vows since they held that first in their heart. St. Joseph understood the BLessed Mother's love for God, and vice versa. their love was something that was beyond what we know it as. so they had no intention of breaking that vow to God before nor after they got married, because they had decided long ago to give themselves fully to God, "do unto me according to thy will" and they did by doing God's will and plan for Him. they had a chaste marriage, and the BLessed Mother being the Mother of God, fulfilled her role to the most perfection that this world may ever know. remember, Mary is Ever Virgin.....is and always will be...so its important to remember that. She is Mother of God, forever, and she Upholds that title.

their marriage was one beyond what any of us can comprehend being that they are major parts of God's divine plan for His Son, Jesus to be born.

we try to understand it as what we know marriage of today, of what it means, but the Holy Family and marriage between the BLessed mother of Heaven and St. Joseph was rock solid, they both knew God's plan..........and followed it.....to the every end

it is thru their love of God that could not be shaken by ANYTHING of this world that we come to understand the Holy Family was anything but ordinary but really was a match made in heaven by God himself. and its what made their marriage 'out of this world'and pure, sacred, holy and good for it was all part of God's divine hand

[littleflower+JMJ]

also if you read and learn more about St. Joseph you will learn that he saw Mary, as you and I see her, as Mother of God, completely in awe of her, being her protector, he knew she was special, he knew She was the Mother of Jesus, Queen of Heaven, Pure and Holy, the one chosen and created sinless by God, and upheld his duty faithfully to God and Her till the end of his life. St. Joseph is like you and me, honoring the BLessed Mother, as the Mother of God that She was, the same way you and I do.

and he had God's special Role to protect her and be Jesus' foster father that he fulfilled.

thus, St. Joseph knew God's plans and knew who Mary was and upheld that.

again, the Holy Family was a image of God and His love in the most highest way that its hard to even compare it to what our defintion of marriage may be

[Laudate_Dominum]

Amen littleflower! That was beautiful.

[littleflower+JMJ]

Amen littleflower! That was beautiful.

thanks i just hope i helped those understand more about the BLessed Mother. ^_^

it all comes down to the BLessed Mother and St. Joseph keeping their promise of purity, chasity and virginity that they had made and given to God, guided by the Holy Spirit, and both of them having the graces bestowed from God to be triumphant in His plans, that their promise, that each made individually to God, was never broken.

Blessed Mother, Ever Virgin, pray for us! :wub:

God bless,

+JMJ

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

Also, she had a baby with GOD! Having sex with another man, even if he was your husband, would be like cheating on God! I can't imagine His wrath on that one!

See...I don't see how Joseph consencratin his marriage to Mary would be like cheating on God. I mean....God, in essence, gave Joseph and Mary to each other, correct? So, why would it have been such a horrible thing for them (Mary and Joseph) to express their love for one another by becoming one sexually? Honest, serious question.

I just find it hard to believe that it would have been forbidden. As the Christmas story is told, Joseph was going to divorce marry because he had thought that she had been unfaithful to him (Jospeh). So, how would she have been unfaithful to Joseph (or him think that) if their marriage wasn't going to be like any other?

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Bro Adam,

I didnt get to read all 4 pages of this so I will just post something interesting that Sacred Scriptures says. This is a writting from St. Augustine on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary.

It is written (Ezech. 44:2): "This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it; because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it." Expounding these words, Augustine says in a sermon (De Annunt. Dom. iii): "What means this closed gate in the House of the Lord, except that Mary is to be ever inviolate? What does it mean that 'no man shall pass through it,' save that Joseph shall not know her? And what is this--'The Lord alone enters in and goeth out by it'--except that the Holy Ghost shall impregnate her, and that the Lord of angels shall be born of her? And what means this--'it shall be shut for evermore'--but that Mary is a virgin before His Birth, a virgin in His Birth, and a virgin after His Birth?"

As Augustine says (De Nup. et Concup. i): "The Mother of God is called (Joseph's) wife from the first promise of her espousals, whom he had not known nor ever was to know by carnal intercourse." For, as Ambrose says on Lk. 1:27: "The fact of her marriage is declared, not to insinuate the loss of virginity, but to witness to the reality of the union."

I hope this helps answer your questions. God Bless

[Aloysius]

isn't it just as likely Joseph thought she had broken her vow to God...?

early Christians believed Mary was forever virgin and wrote many tales to proove that fact relying on stories told at the time that were less than 300 years old and knowledge of a culture that existed less than 300 years b4 them..

that story is the most reliable story we could have about these specific details. that Mary vowed her perpetual virginity and Joseph took her in to protect her after she stopped living at the temple. the Gospel story does not contradict. it did not mention anything about plans to sleep together, and Joseph was afraid she had slept with someone else, anger is justified there in either case either if it was because he thought she had broken her vow to God (and that vow was the reason St. Joseph had been chosen to take her in and protect her) or he was expecting to sleep with her. the question is, who's version, who's interpretation, should we hold to be more likely true?

my money's on the faithful lay ppl of the 3rd / 4th centuries...

[Laudate_Dominum]

They didn't need to express their love sexually because that's not how their live was. The highest form of union is spiritual not physical. Like St. Francis and St. Clare, or St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross.

Mary was the chosen Mother of God. It doesn't make sense that she would have more kids after that (see previous posts). And it doesn't make sense that they would have sex without desiring more children (can you see then using a condom or birth control pills?) Mary and Joseph's vocation was to raise Jesus and be an image of the Trinity as the Holy Family. They weren't normal people, their son was not a normal person and their love for each other was not normal, it was higher. There were not single mothers back then like now. The society did not have a place for single mothers. Of course Mary would need a husband, but the ever virgin Mother of God is not for any man to have sex with. She is totally God's, like a nun. And when Joseph was considering "sending her away quietly" because he didn't yet know everything that was going on it does not suggest anything about their marriage, it is saying that he was trying to protect her because they law would require her to be stoned to death for adultery. It shows that he knew she didn't commit adultery and was trying to spare her from those penalties.

Read the earlier posts because they explain much of the patristic and biblical evidence. The main thing is that from the beginning of Christianity the correct belief was that Mary was ever-virgin. This is how it was, this was God's plan. It would have been wrong for Mary and Joseph to have sex because Mary was for God alone. Mary is the image and model of the Church, the Church is virgin, bride, and mother. This is what Mary is too, forever. And bride in the first place to God, just like God is Christ's Father and St. Joseph is often described as his step-father.

Mary and Joseph were more deeply united through Christ and through their fidelity to God and love for Jesus than natural marriage unites spouses. They had a perfect spritual union that was more like how we are united in heaven, where, as Christ says, men and women are not united in marriage but are like the angels.

[cmotherofpirl]

See...I don't see how Joseph consencratin his marriage to Mary would be like cheating on God.  I mean....God, in essence, gave Joseph and Mary to each other, correct?  So, why would it have been such a horrible thing for them (Mary and Joseph) to express their love for one another by becoming one sexually?  Honest, serious question.

I just find it hard to believe that it would have been forbidden.  As the Christmas story is told, Joseph was going to divorce marry because he had thought that she had been unfaithful to him (Jospeh).  So, how would she have been unfaithful to Joseph (or him think that) if their marriage wasn't going to be like any other?

Mrs Adam it wasn't forbidden for them to be intimate, they probably didn't even think of it. They had God in their arms, what could be more intimate or unifying than that. Sex would have been a pale comparison to holding the Messiah. Spiritual intimacy is far more potent than physical intimacy.

Edited February 2, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[phatcatholic]

this point has already been made in previous posts, but i want to reiterate it singularly in case it was somehow missed in the shuffle. that point is this:

God DID atone for Mary, by defending her from original sin with the "forseen merits" of Jesus' death on the cross. so, she is a creature saved--just like us--but in a unique and special way.

also, to defend her virginity by considering Joseph, the Fathers often refer to Joseph as "her most chaste spouse." so, if we give this testimony any merit (and we do!) then we see here a possible reverse proof for the virginity of Mary.

finally, i just wanted to point out a few scripture verses that haven't been mentioned yet:

Mark 6:3 Is he not the carpenter, the son of Mary, and the brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.

Jesus was always referred to as "the" son of Mary, not "a" son of Mary

John 7:3-4 So his brothers 2 said to him, "Leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples also may see the works you are doing. No one works in secret if he wants to be known publicly. If you do these things, manifest yourself to the world."

--and--

Mark 3:21 When his relatives heard of this they set out to seize him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."

In these two citations, we see that younger "brothers" were advising Jesus. But this would have been extremely disrespectful for devout Jews if these were Jesus' biological brothers.

i hope this helps. let us know if u have any more info, and thank you sincerely for your honest questions.

pax christi,

phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

Brother Adam,

These are very good questions! Thank you for asking them. There is much that could be said in response as I'm sure you can imagine. But I will just make a couple of points that I think are of central importance.

The Fathers of the Church taught Mary's perpetual virginity. An ancient Christian writing known as the proto-evangelium of James tells of Mary's parents and how they were getting old and had not yet had any children. Mary's birth was prophecied to them and they made a vow to consecrate her to God. According to this account Mary lived in the temple until she hit puberty. Because of the ritual purification rules she could no longer live in the temple. It was thus that St. Joseph was chosen to be the guardian of the Virgin. According to this text Joseph was older and a widow. I don't know if this story is exactly true, but it reflects the earliest Christian view of Our Lady as a perpetual virgin.

Some Fathers and othes have seen indications of this in Scripture. For example when the Angel Gabriel announces to Mary that she will concieve and bear the Christ, her reply was "how can this be, since I know not man?", since she was betrothed to Joseph at this point it would be a silly question if they intended to have marital relations. Obviously she would concieve because she would soon be married and have marital relations. So many have seen this as an indication of Mary's vow of virginity.

Many of the Fathers defend Our Lady's perpetual virginity on the basis of the singular holiness of the Incarnation. Basically it is impious to think that this sacred vessel, who was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and bore the Incarnate Deity, would be "known" by a man. Joseph would not dare enter this Sanctuary of the Most High. Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant, a man would be struck dead for even touching the old ark. How much more is this Sacred Virgin's inviolateness and purity.

Another point that is invoked by the Fathers in Mary's defense is the fact that Jesus entrusted Mary to John at the foot of the cross. If Mary and Joseph had had marital relations and begotten offspring together it would not only not make sense, but be totally against the social norms to entrust Mary to anyone other than one of Her other children.

Then there is the fact that Mary was seen by the earliest of Fathers as the New Eve, the Woman with the Redeemer, and since Christ remained always virgin, it is fitting for this New Eve to remain always a virgin. These teachings are not meant to take away from the dignity and holiness of Christian Marriage. But there was a deep consciousness in the early Church of the value of virginity and continence as an eschatological sign and as an offering to God, Jesus and Mary were the models of holy virginity for men and women. It proclaims that "the form of this world is passing away" and that despite the goodness of marriage, living for the Kingdom of God, and God's righteousness are the only definitive values in this life. Virginity was compared in the early Church to martyrdom in that it is a profound gift of self for God and for the Kingdom. It is only fitting that Jesus and Mary embraced such a charism. Mary's response to God to bear Jesus required a total, irrevocable gift of self which implies that Mary's life was quite unique.

Anyway, the idea that Mary should have had marital relations with Joseph goes totally against the ancient way of thinking (especially the Jewish way of thinking) about the Sacred and purity and stuff. It would be inconceivable to people's minds that the Holy Ark of God who was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and bore the Incarnate God would later be known by a man. By the very fact of Her having born God, she would be seen as totally consecrated to the Most High as His chosen vessel.

As far as Mary's need for redemption from sin, the teachings of the Church affirm this! Jesus was Mary's Saviour just as much as anyone else (even more so in a sense). Because of Mary's unique and most exalted vocation she has been given singular graces enabling her to be fit for this calling. The Church expresses it in terms of "preservative redemption". This is at the heart of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. Expressed in negative terms it is as follows: "Mary, from the moment of her conception, and through the foreseen merits of Christ, was freed from all stain of original sin". Put in positive terms she was given sanctifying grace from the moment of her conception. Something like a regenerative baptism in the womb. It is said that John the Baptist was sanctified in the womb because he was to be the forerunner. Mary was sanctified in a singular way from the moment of her conception, to be a fit Mother for the Son of God from whom He would take flesh.

Her Immaculate Conception is the beginning of a New Creation, she was the New Eve, and many Fathers also call Her the Virgin Earth from which the New Adam was formed, or the shoot from the stump of Jesse from which would flower forth the Messiah, or like Aaron's staff which budded.

I hope this helps clear up some of your questions.

Peace.

dude, u hook up the reference section every time you write! ur amesome man, thanks :D

[littleflower+JMJ]

whats very important also is that the BLessed Mother and St. Joseph came together not because they wanted to marry each other but because it was God's will for it.

Mary did not know man, and St. Joseph had no plans but yet God called them. st.t joseph was planning on quietly divorcing Her at the beginnin when he did not know who She was.....

so this is something different then them meaning/planning to marry each other, they married to fulfill God's plan for the salvation of the world.

it was something special and pure.

[phatcatholic]

pham,

i saw this article (hehe, i was reading articles, go figure!), and it reminded me of this discussion. its about the Holy Family as a model for what marriage should truly be like. i encourage everyone who has been a part of this thread to read it. it is excellent.

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http://catholiceducation.org/articles/marriage/mf0021.html

Mary and the Gift of Life: Motherhood Requires Openness to the New Person MARY SHIVANANDAN

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Marriage has been a dominant symbol in both the Old and the New Covenants of God's love for man and Christ's love for the Church. As such it has both illuminated divine love and been elevated by the comparison. The marriage of Mary and Joseph is both illuminated by sacramental marriage and sheds light on the ordinary marriages of Christians. This is particularly true in our day.

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Through the conception and gestation of Jesus Christ in the womb of Mary, the wombs of all women were raised to a new dignity.

Already the womb was a sacred place in Creation as the home of the new human person made in the image of God. Recall Eve's exclamation in Genesis 4: 1, “I have gotten a man with the help of the Lord.” But the incarnation raised it to an even greater dignity.

As John Paul II says in the encyclical Mulieris Dignitatem (On the Dignity and Vocation of Women), “Each and every time that motherhood is repeated in human history, it is always related to the Covenant which God established with the human race through the motherhood of the Mother of God” (MD §19)

MARY'S ACCEPTANCE; JOSEPH'S FIDELITY

Let us reflect a moment on the circumstance of the Annunciation. Mary was betrothed but not yet married to Joseph. The angel Gabriel did not initially involve Joseph in Mary's choice of motherhood. So in a fundamental sense the choice of motherhood is a direct encounter between the woman and God.

When a woman agrees to sexual intercourse she consents to God's direct partnership with her in creating new human life. This is an amazing affirmation of her personhood. With it comes a great responsibility.

Mary was well aware of the consequences of fiat or acceptance of God's will . She knew that Joseph had the right not only to put her aside but even to have her stoned. Mary's fiat showed not only absolute trust in God but great courage.

It is significant that the pregnancies of Mary and Elizabeth represent the two periods of a woman's life when a pregnancy can be the most difficult. Mary was in the position similar to that of an unwed teen mother and Elizabeth faced a pregnancy close to the menopause. This is a time when many women in our society are pressured into sterilization or abortion.

But God did not want Mary to bear and bring up her son alone. An angel appeared to Joseph and said, “Do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.” (Matt. 1:20) Joseph then took Mary into his home as his wife. Mary remained a virgin throughout her marriage to Joseph, and yet theirs was a true marriage in which they lived together and shared a union of mind and heart.

Artists have depicted Joseph as an old man, perhaps because they could not conceive that a young man could live with a beautiful young girl and abstain from sexual intercourse. Joseph, like us, was subject to original sin with its tendency towards concupiscence. The whole Jewish tradition lent its weight to procreation and the blessing of a large family. So how was it possible for Joseph to live chastely with Mary?

MARITAL LOVE AND DIVINE LOVE

Marriage has been a dominant symbol in both the Old and the New Covenants of God's love for man and Christ's love for the Church. As such it has both illuminated divine love and been elevated by the comparison. The marriage of Mary and Joseph is both illuminated by sacramental marriage and sheds light on the ordinary marriages of Christians. This is particularly true in our day.

Sexual abstinence is not considered in modern views of marriage. The aim of contraception is to enable the man and the woman to have sexual intercourse without any thought for pregnancy. But in natural family planning (the way of spacing children by timing intercourse according to the fertile and infertile phases of the woman's cycle) the virtue of marital chastity has an honorable place.

When a couple chooses natural family planning, they resolve to respect the time when a woman is fertile and a new life could be conceived. This calls for great trust on the part of both the woman and the man. The wife makes herself vulnerable to her husband in a radical way.

It was just in this way that Mary made herself vulnerable to Joseph. Mary entrusted herself to Joseph because she had entrusted herself to God.

But Mary also took responsibility for the gift God had given her in her Son. As John Paul II says, “Motherhood implies from the beginning a special openness to the new person: and this is precisely the woman's 'part.' In this openness, in conceiving and giving birth to a child, the woman 'discovers herself through a sincere gift of self.” '(MD §18)

Mary's first act after receiving the stupendous news of her own pregnancy was to go to her cousin Elizabeth, who was also pregnant, to share her gift and to aid her cousin. (Luke 1:26)

No mention is made of Joseph accompanying Mary on this journey. In both Luke's and Matthew's gospels, the husbands, Joseph and Zechariah greet the news of pregnancy with either disbelief or consternation As John Paul II observes, “The man -even with all his sharing of parenthood-always remains 'outside the process of and the baby's birth; in many ways he has to learn his own 'fatherhood' from the mother.” (MD §18)

It is especially the role of the woman to protect the “fruit of her womb” , and then the role of the man to protect both mother and child By making a “sincere gift” of herself to her husband and child, a woman calls forth love from her husband.

Joseph was instructed by the angel to take the mother and child out of danger to Egypt and again to return to Nazareth. (Matt. 2: 13, 21 23) He, too, was called to make a sincere gift of himself. He was assigned by God to protect both Mother and Child. In doing so his whole life was disrupted. For the sake of the Child he became a refugee.

The Gospel accounts of the Holy Family show us a surprise ingly complex interrelationship of masculine and feminine roles What is predominant is an attitude of yielding to God, to one another and to the child.

GOD'S PLAN FOR MARRIAGE

This is the Christian model of marriage and family. But how far we have strayed from this model in our culture!

The majority of Catholic couples have abandoned chastity well before their wedding day. More than 80% use contraception

In a survey shortly before the pope's visit in October I 1995 69% said one could have an abortion for reasons other than danger to the mother's life and still be a good Catholic.

How have we come to this pass that the woman no longer protects the fruit of her womb? How can women call men to their responsibility if they reject the special role that God has given uniquely to women?

God has a plan for marriage and family and every pope in this century has proclaimed it. Only by respecting the inseparability of the “unitive” and “procreative” dimensions of sexual intercourse can a couple fulfill that plan.

For the woman it means cherishing her fertility and any pregnancy that may result. Like Mary she is in a unique partnership with God any time she conceives, even in a difficult pregnancy.

For the man it means honoring his wife's gift of fertility, even if it means forgoing the pleasures of sexual intercourse. God does not ask of the average man or woman in marriage complete abstinence from marital relations as He did of Joseph and Mary.

But respect for the unique time in the cycle when new life can be conceived includes complete chastity before marriage when no enduring commitment has yet been made by the couple. Sexual intercourse is the sign and seal of this commitment

HOLY FAMILY AS MODEL

Joseph was scarcely more privileged than the average man today He did not even have the grace of the Sacraments True, he did have the presence of Jesus and Mary. But we, too, have Jesus and Mary present to us And in the Eucharist we are united with Jesus.

Just as Mary's fidelity to God enabled her to call forth heroic virtue from Joseph, so the Christian woman by this same fidelity may inspire her beloved to the virtue of chastity.

Marriage has been a dominant symbol in both the Old and the New Covenants of God's love for man and Christ's love for the Church.

How different from others are couples who choose to live God's way! Father Bruce Nieli recently observed, “So what does NFP (natural family planning) do? ... It gives us an instrument to grow in holiness.” He said he was “converted” to NFP by the couples who were “very real and very much in love with one another and with God.”

Father Nieli sees a “spirituality, a bondedness, a one “ in couples who practice NFP, “a rootedness in one another and a rootedness in God.” (NFP Diocesan Activity Report, a, no. 4 - Fall 1995 - 13).

Many might say, my child-bearing years are over-what does NFP have to do with me? Well, what does it have to do with a priest who has taken a vow of celibacy? The title of Father Nieli's talk was “NFP and Evangelization” . Whatever makes us holy is a means of evangelization.

THE FAMILY LINKED TO “CIVILIZATION OF LOVE”

As John Paul II wrote in his Letter to Families, the family in a certain way constitutes the “way of the Church.” (LF, 2) It is organically linked to the civilization of love, he says. (LF, 13 )

How married couples live out their covenant in which they are a sign of Christ's love for His Church concerns us all Grandparents, for example, have a special relationship with their grandchildren and can teach them the beauty of God's plan for marriage and family. Even if they did not know about or practice NFP themselves, or if their families have been buffeted by divorce and sundry social ills, they can still hold out a vision of hope to the young.

I cannot but think that the spread of natural family planning is of special concern to Mary. Certainly, wherever I have found devotion to Mary I have found an openness to life and to the Church's teaching on the inseparability of the unitive and procreative dimensions of sexuality. And where NFP flourishes, the family flourishes, also.

Mary Shivanandan teaches at the Pope John Paul 11 Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family, Washington, DC, and writes on family issues. This essay was first presented as a talk to the Sodality Union.

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i hope this helps to aid our understanding of the Holy Family and the role of Mary's Perpetual Virginity.

Pax Christi,

phatcatholic