Maritial Intimacy

[God Conquers]

Also, she had a baby with GOD! Having sex with another man, even if he was your husband, would be like cheating on God! I can't imagine His wrath on that one!

[KennC]

... and I still can't image Joseph tredding on "Holy Ground" amymore than I can picture Mary not preserving that "ground" and keeping it "Holy".

[Nicole]

... and I still can't image Joseph tredding on "Holy Ground" amymore than I can picture Mary not preserving that "ground" and keeping it "Holy".

I don't think Joseph would desecrate Mary if they were to consummate their marriage. Sex is holy.

hyperdulia again, I said that in defense because I think when someone speaks of marital intimacy, that's the first thing that comes to mind. You're right, it's definitely not the only way to express intimacy.

[KennC]

I don't think Joseph would desecrate Mary if they were to consummate their marriage. Sex is holy.

I understand what you're saying and thinking with our modern sense, it does make sense but trying to think through their perspective after such an event, ... I couldn't go there.

[Nicole]

I understand what you're saying and thinking with our modern sense, it does make sense but trying to think through their perspective after such an event, ... I couldn't go there.

Well, I'm a woman. I might just see it a little differently. But I know what you mean. It just came across a bit like sex was a bad thing, when it should be amesome and reverenced.

[Aloysius]

according to tradition, Mary had made a vow of perpetual virginity and was dedicated to the Lord living in the temple. the high priest (i 4get y, but he did) to tell all the girls there to go home to find husbands. Mary refused. The high priest feared God and knew he couldn't make her break her vow to God. He called for ppl to take her as wife but respect her vow. There were about 12 suitors, one being St. Joseph. He took the staffs before the arc, and St. Josephs grew flowers at the top. St. Joseph was therefore to take Mary as his wife respecting her vow.

that tradition comes from Christians in about the 3rd/4th century, The Gospel of the Nativity of Mary and the Protevangelium of James and stuff... many early Christian writings make a point of showing Mary's sinlessness and virginity.

[KennC]

Hi Nicole;

, to me that would be Holy Ground from that moment on, and I just couldn't go there, sorry.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Brother Adam,

These are very good questions! Thank you for asking them. There is much that could be said in response as I'm sure you can imagine. But I will just make a couple of points that I think are of central importance.

The Fathers of the Church taught Mary's perpetual virginity. An ancient Christian writing known as the proto-evangelium of James tells of Mary's parents and how they were getting old and had not yet had any children. Mary's birth was prophecied to them and they made a vow to consecrate her to God. According to this account Mary lived in the temple until she hit puberty. Because of the ritual purification rules she could no longer live in the temple. It was thus that St. Joseph was chosen to be the guardian of the Virgin. According to this text Joseph was older and a widow. I don't know if this story is exactly true, but it reflects the earliest Christian view of Our Lady as a perpetual virgin.

Some Fathers and othes have seen indications of this in Scripture. For example when the Angel Gabriel announces to Mary that she will concieve and bear the Christ, her reply was "how can this be, since I know not man?", since she was betrothed to Joseph at this point it would be a silly question if they intended to have marital relations. Obviously she would concieve because she would soon be married and have marital relations. So many have seen this as an indication of Mary's vow of virginity.

Many of the Fathers defend Our Lady's perpetual virginity on the basis of the singular holiness of the Incarnation. Basically it is impious to think that this sacred vessel, who was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and bore the Incarnate Deity, would be "known" by a man. Joseph would not dare enter this Sanctuary of the Most High. Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant, a man would be struck dead for even touching the old ark. How much more is this Sacred Virgin's inviolateness and purity.

Another point that is invoked by the Fathers in Mary's defense is the fact that Jesus entrusted Mary to John at the foot of the cross. If Mary and Joseph had had marital relations and begotten offspring together it would not only not make sense, but be totally against the social norms to entrust Mary to anyone other than one of Her other children.

Then there is the fact that Mary was seen by the earliest of Fathers as the New Eve, the Woman with the Redeemer, and since Christ remained always virgin, it is fitting for this New Eve to remain always a virgin. These teachings are not meant to take away from the dignity and holiness of Christian Marriage. But there was a deep consciousness in the early Church of the value of virginity and continence as an eschatological sign and as an offering to God, Jesus and Mary were the models of holy virginity for men and women. It proclaims that "the form of this world is passing away" and that despite the goodness of marriage, living for the Kingdom of God, and God's righteousness are the only definitive values in this life. Virginity was compared in the early Church to martyrdom in that it is a profound gift of self for God and for the Kingdom. It is only fitting that Jesus and Mary embraced such a charism. Mary's response to God to bear Jesus required a total, irrevocable gift of self which implies that Mary's life was quite unique.

Anyway, the idea that Mary should have had marital relations with Joseph goes totally against the ancient way of thinking (especially the Jewish way of thinking) about the Sacred and purity and stuff. It would be inconceivable to people's minds that the Holy Ark of God who was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and bore the Incarnate God would later be known by a man. By the very fact of Her having born God, she would be seen as totally consecrated to the Most High as His chosen vessel.

As far as Mary's need for redemption from sin, the teachings of the Church affirm this! Jesus was Mary's Saviour just as much as anyone else (even more so in a sense). Because of Mary's unique and most exalted vocation she has been given singular graces enabling her to be fit for this calling. The Church expresses it in terms of "preservative redemption". This is at the heart of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. Expressed in negative terms it is as follows: "Mary, from the moment of her conception, and through the foreseen merits of Christ, was freed from all stain of original sin". Put in positive terms she was given sanctifying grace from the moment of her conception. Something like a regenerative baptism in the womb. It is said that John the Baptist was sanctified in the womb because he was to be the forerunner. Mary was sanctified in a singular way from the moment of her conception, to be a fit Mother for the Son of God from whom He would take flesh.

Her Immaculate Conception is the beginning of a New Creation, she was the New Eve, and many Fathers also call Her the Virgin Earth from which the New Adam was formed, or the shoot from the stump of Jesse from which would flower forth the Messiah, or like Aaron's staff which budded.

I hope this helps clear up some of your questions.

Peace.

[Brother Adam]

Other traditions maintain that Mary was a consecrated Virgin to God. A lady of the temple, like a present day nun (this is where monastic roots lie) would have been chaste for their whole lives.

Do ladies of the temple or nuns get married?

[Aloysius]

according to tradition, Mary had made a vow of perpetual virginity and was dedicated to the Lord living in the temple. the high priest (i 4get y, but he did) to tell all the girls there to go home to find husbands. Mary refused. The high priest feared God and knew he couldn't make her break her vow to God. He called for ppl to take her as wife but respect her vow. There were about 12 suitors, one being St. Joseph. He took the staffs before the arc, and St. Josephs grew flowers at the top. St. Joseph was therefore to take Mary as his wife respecting her vow.

that tradition comes from Christians in about the 3rd/4th century, The Gospel of the Nativity of Mary and the Protevangelium of James and stuff... many early Christian writings make a point of showing Mary's sinlessness and virginity.

bro, read my post about how tradition explains it

[Brother Adam]

sorry i wrote that last post while you two were posting. thanks!

[Laudate_Dominum]

bro, read my post about how tradition explains it

It should be noted for the sake of our protestant brethren, that these documents, "The Protoevengelium of James", etc. do not constitute part of Sacred Tradition (big "T") but are rather pious Christian writings from the early centuries and the Church does not endorse them as if they are infallible or even necessarily true. The authoritative basis of the doctrine of Our Lady's perpetual virginity is the unanimous concensus of the Fathers. This has always been considered the "orthodox" understanding of Our Lady, or the correct doctrine, that which is what the Apostle's have handed down. The Church dogmatically defined Our Lady's perpetual virginity way back in the Patristic era. But of course there are many logical reasons for believing it besides the fact that it's an authoritative part of Tradition. The Word is the only-begotten of the Father, it is fitting that the Word Incarnate be the only-begotten of His human mother. See my previous post for more reasons.

[Aloysius]

It should be noted for the sake of our protestant brethren, that these documents, "The Protoevengelium of James", etc. do not constitute part of Sacred Tradition (big "T") but are rather pious Christian writings from the early centuries and the Church does not endorse them as if they are infallible or even necessarily true. The authoritative basis of the doctrine of Our Lady's perpetual virginity is the unanimous concensus of the Fathers. This has always been considered the "orthodox" understanding of Our Lady, or the correct doctrine, that which is what the Apostle's have handed down. The Church dogmatically defined Our Lady's perpetual virginity way back in the Patristic era. But of course there are many logical reasons for believing it besides the fact that it's an authoritative part of Tradition. The Word is the only-begotten of the Father, it is fitting that the Word Incarnate be the only-begotten of His human mother. See my previous post for more reasons.

check my post, there's a little t, i was very careful

anyway, i know. this just illustrates early Christian beliefs, it is by no means infallible, but these are the explanations of people who were closer to the time of Mary and Jesus, closer to the culture of the time of Mary and Jesus... it pulls a lil weight that way. :cool:

[cmotherofpirl]

THe proto of James does not carry the same weight as the Church Fathers. It is legend and the Fathers are Sacred Tradition.

[Aloysius]

i know

the weight i said it carried was that it was written by people who were a lot closer to the culture and the times... it's not written by some Catholic writer 2000 years after Christ oceans away from where he lived.

i was careful about it, i made sure to put a LITTLE t... it's just a lil tradition, not scripture, not infallible, just shows what faithful lay Christians at the time were tryin to proove when they wrote, faithful lay Christians with prolly a better understanding of the culture of Jesus/Mary than any scholar nowadays could ever figure out ;)