Apotheoun Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 [quote name='catholicinsd' post='1286362' date='Jun 1 2007, 09:37 PM']At present it isn't a crime, and certainly not one warranting death. And you know what? It probably would be a crime if not for the zealots like you.[/quote] This statement is heretical. If the positive law of the State contradicts the divine and natural law, it is an abuse, and no one can in good conscience support it. Doctors who perform the crime of abortion (i.e., the murder of the innocent in the womb), should be prosecuted for murder, and they should suffer the maximum penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1286299' date='Jun 1 2007, 09:10 PM']Apo hasn't said he's advocating murder. I'm guessing he's not sure whether it's okay or not. Or, just not wanting to provoke anything. He does have a way of stating things so vaguely that sometimes I think it's a way for him to not face issues. Maybe he doen't like to admit he doesn't know, as that'd clarify a lot. Who knows, but it sure is interesting.[/quote] Of course I am not advocating murder (i.e., the killing of the innocent), but I am advocating the prosecution and punishment (including the possibility of recourse to the death penalty) of doctors who kill innocent human beings (whether by abortion or euthansia). God bless, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 The Death Penalty is a punishment, and not so much a deterrent. Society must be protected from murders and killers. Society consist of people in the public, and believe it or not people in prison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1286463' date='Jun 2 2007, 02:24 AM']The Death Penalty is a punishment, and not so much a deterrent. Society must be protected from murders and killers. Society consist of people in the public, and believe it or not people in prison.[/quote] Yes, as Pope Pius XII indicated, the purpose of the death penalty is the restoration of tranquility (i.e., order) by the punishment of the malefactor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1285249' date='May 31 2007, 02:59 PM']considering that the catechism segment came from JPII's document, as cited in the first post, how do you say it's not infallible?[/quote] The last two paragraphs of the quotation from the Catechism are prudential in nature, and prudential judgments are not covered by the charism of infallibility. A prudential judgment is an application of theoretical wisdom to a particular case, and such judgments are by definition case specific, and cannot be made into a universal norm. Moreover, the Church's Magisterium, in agreement with the revealed Word of God -- contained in both scripture and tradition -- permit the State to execute criminals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catholicinsd Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 [quote name='goldenchild17' post='1286459' date='Jun 2 2007, 03:43 AM']I suppose I am not pro-ALL-life. I am pro-innocent-life. I do believe in the death penalty in cases where guilt is proven and remorse is not shown by the sinner. Whatever may result from that stance I can live with that on my conscience just fine. My faith teaches that the death penalty is a viable punishment for those that fit the crime. I have no reason to disagree with this judgment. And yes I hope God does have mercy on the poor sinner that I am. But for some reason my soul is quite content supporting the death penalty for unrepentant murderers. Just as an unrepentant sinner deserves hell, so to does an unrepentant murderer deserve not only hell but a physical death as well. If the murderer is fully sorry for his sin(s) then I believe some lesser punishment would be sufficient just as a repentant sinner (I believe) will often have to spend some time in purgatory. If it's "uncharitable" of me then that's the way it is. I believe true charity, true love for your neighbor, is informing them of the grave danger they can get into for these sins. True charity is NOT simply "letting things go" just so that you don't offend the other. Is it less loving to let someone go to hell, or to offend them? If I have the choice I'll take the latter any day. May be my mistake, but one I can certainly live with.[/quote] If abortion doctor should be murdered as you say, then you should be brought up on terrorism charges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jckinsman Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 [quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1286443' date='Jun 2 2007, 01:44 AM']No I wasn't raised in Lakewood, I actually was raised 3 months of the year on Tulalip Native Reservation [Everett], then in Federalway and tacoma. However, I don't understand where your sarcasm comes from... How was my comment meant to make you laugh and why would you take it as something to mock me over? I was telling about a song that exists on this very topic of abortion, that you might be interested in [from a local hiphop cru native of washington] and you pretty much insult me. Reza[/quote] I 'am truly sorry my mistake. I do not listen to ANY kind of music like that at all. I had a bad experiance with rap /hip hop type music and my teenagers. We do not allow it in the home. I really have a hard time thinking that any of it could be good.(Until 5 point covenant ) I took your comment as sarcastic to my telling the story of the Doctors. I do apologize for my mistake. It's hard to understand the way people mean things when they type it. I take abortion very seriously,and I go on the defense quickly when it comes to this subject. Will you for give me? JC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 [quote name='catholicinsd' post='1286538' date='Jun 2 2007, 12:28 PM']If abortion doctor should be murdered as you say, then you should be brought up on terrorism charges.[/quote] Terrorism charges? Why? Because he feels that murderers should be put to death? I don't agree with him whatsoever, but his beliefs are not [i]terrorism[/i]. Now, if he were to act out those beliefs by harming abortionists, there'd be a problem. But, as it is now, he believes that the state should prosecute abortionists and condemn them to death. Terrorism? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 [quote name='kujo' post='1286449' date='Jun 2 2007, 12:11 AM']I'd also like to say that the life in a maximum security prison stripped of the cushiness of other prisons would absolutely be MORE of a deterrant to crime than the death penalty.[/quote] The death penalty has never been a deterrent. So this statement doesn't make sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 [quote name='hot stuff' post='1286570' date='Jun 2 2007, 01:27 PM']The death penalty has never been a deterrent. So this statement doesn't make sense[/quote] I think you misunderstand my point. I am saying that life in prison is MORE of a deterrant than the death penalty which is NOT a deterrant at any statistically-significant level. We are in agreement Jamie. Bless you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 It's true that studies have shown states without the death penalty actually have lower murder rates than those with it. It's a weird correlation, but it kinda makes sense. I would think that when people commit crimes it is generally either because they don't think they'll get caught, or they don't care about the consequences if they do get caught, or they are unaware of the consequences of getting caught. Increased enforcement -- making it more likely a lawbreaker would get caught -- seems it might be a more effective deterrent than harsher punishments. Even in states where the DP is applied, it is applied so infrequently that there is no certainty that a particular crime will get it. It's even been applied unevenly in individual crimes from time to time -- one participant ends up on death row while the other gets life in prison. That kind of application renders it largely ineffective as a punishment. For it to be truly a deterrent there would need to be some degree of certainty that X action will result in death. Such certainty doesn't exist. Except maybe in Texas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 Saweet! Blessings back at you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 [quote name='catholicinsd' post='1286538' date='Jun 2 2007, 10:28 AM']If abortion doctor should be murdered as you say, then you should be brought up on terrorism charges.[/quote] Okay, but for what? For advocating the punishment of a murder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 [quote name='kujo' post='1286564' date='Jun 2 2007, 11:19 AM']Terrorism charges? Why? Because he feels that murderers should be put to death? I don't agree with him whatsoever, but his beliefs are not [i]terrorism[/i]. Now, if he were to act out those beliefs by harming abortionists, there'd be a problem. But, as it is now, he believes that the state should prosecute abortionists and condemn them to death. Terrorism? No.[/quote] yes, I would never advocate abortion clinic bombings or anything a number of extremists have done. There is a legitimate way to handle these situations that is advocated by my Church. The Death Penalty, I believe, is a justifiable punishment. This does not mean that I would ever go and murder them myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 [quote name='goldenchild17' post='1286604' date='Jun 2 2007, 02:33 PM']yes, I would never advocate abortion clinic bombings or anything a number of extremists have done. There is a legitimate way to handle these situations that is advocated by my Church. The Death Penalty, I believe, is a justifiable punishment. This does not mean that I would ever go and murder them myself.[/quote] What Church are you a member of, just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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