Islam According To The Qur'an/hadeeths Interpreted By:

[RezaMikhaeil]

Being that several individuals [not just mortify] believe that the only method to true Muslims being peaceful, is to denounce their religion, I decided the only proper thing to do is to dedicate a thread to him [and those that agree with him], as to give him [them] an opportunity to prove everyone else wrong. Since Muslims don't believe in the supremacy of a man, but are sola scriptures as Protestants but with the Qur'an as their Holy Book, this shouldn't be difficult for Mortify [and the others] to prove everyone else wrong. It might even be educational to those of us that were raised Muslim or among Muslims that fundementally disagree with them.

I'm very much looking forward to this discussion, so that these matters can be put to rest once and for all.

Reza

[RezaMikhaeil]

Since I began this thread, and I'd like to lead by example, let me set it off...

[quote]The Dinner Table - [5.51]O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people[/quote] Most people that have false stereotypes interpret this scripture as, that Muslims cannot be friends with Muslims, simple and plain, but is that the case?


The arabic word that's used [as your translation says "friends"] is Auliya, which means protector or helper [among other meanings]. Most Muslim scholars have concluded that the word "Auliya" is more properly interpreted as helper or protector.

If properly interpreted, it would be more accurate to say that Muslims are not to rely on Christians or Jews to be their protectors or rely on them to be their helpers more then their own Muslim breathren [IE: Muslims shouldn't ask their Christian breathren for spiritual advice, over Muslims], as it goes on and says that Christians and Jews don't believe in the same charectoristics of God as Muslims and aren't guided by the same traditions as Muslims [which even Christians would agree with to some degree]. Just so there's no confusion, let me expand on this further... In the context, it would be more intelligent to say that Muslims shouldn't take Christians [or Jews] as their Patrons [just as Christians take Patron Saints, we shouldn't take Muslim Icon figures as our Patron Saints, but rather Christian Saints as our Patron Saints].

Reza

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1284674' date='May 30 2007, 09:39 PM']Being that several individuals [not just mortify] believe that the only method to true Muslims being peaceful, is to denounce their religion, I decided the only proper thing to do is to dedicate a thread to him [and those that agree with him], as to give him [them] an opportunity to prove everyone else wrong. Since Muslims don't believe in the supremacy of a man, but are sola scriptures as Protestants but with the Qur'an as their Holy Book, this shouldn't be difficult for Mortify [and the others] to prove everyone else wrong. It might even be educational to those of us that were raised Muslim or among Muslims that fundementally disagree with them.

I'm very much looking forward to this discussion, so that these matters can be put to rest once and for all.

Reza[/quote]Thank you for introducing this topic. I don't think I've ever explicitly made the claim that you suggest (i.e. a Muslim must denounce their religion to be peaceful), though this was directed at "several individuals." If I'm part of your target group, I'd love you to show me a quote where I make this claim. I would hate you to bear false witness yet again.

In any event, I understand why people see Islam and peace as incompatible. Plenty of ex-Muslims would accept this point of view. In fact, I think that the secular Turks have this thought in the back of their minds as they are struggling to keep themselves from being overrun by Islamic fundamentalism.

I'll point you in the direction of some decent discussion on this subject here:
[url="http://www.answering-islam.org/Index/P/peace.html"]http://www.answering-islam.org/Index/P/peace.html[/url]

I'm not interested in [i]ad hominem[/i] against the website (if you have a prejudice). If you have trouble with their arguments, let your counter-arguments focus on the authors' text, not their motives.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1284674' date='May 30 2007, 09:39 PM']It might even be educational to those of us that were raised Muslim or among Muslims that fundementally disagree with them.[/quote]By the way, it's not entirely clear what your background is. At times you suggest that you grew up in a fundamentalist Christian (or quasi-Christian) sect, considered Islam, but never embraced it. At other times, you talk as if you are an apostate who grew up as a Muslim and renounced Islam. Could you clarify?

In addition, you mention "sisters", but I know that this can be a figurative relationship. Do you actually have biological sisters who are Muslims? I don't mean to pry, but I'm trying to understand where you're coming from.

[Socrates]

On other threads in the past, I have brought up a number of quotes from the Qu'ran explicitly calling for war and violence against non-Muslims, but was simply told by the Islamic-apologists on here that these passages were misinterpreted or badly translated. Absolutely nothing was done however to provide "correct" translations or inform me as to what the "correct" interpretations were.
Therefore, I feel bringing them up again will be futile, and the response will likely leave me equally unconvinced of the peaceful nature of "true Islam."

However, I could dig them up again if Reza truly wants to explain in detail the "true meaning" of these passages (rather than simply saying they're misinterpreted or mis-translated).

And to look at the "true nature" of a religion's teachings, I believe it best to look at the religion's historical roots. In the first centuries of its existence, Islam was hardly spread by peaceful, non-violent means. Violence is not some later abberant development of Islam, but its original means of spreading, and the Muslim leaders took the Qu'ran passages about making war on infidels quite literally.

I find it odd to think that the Qu'ran was consistantly "misinterpreted" by Islamic leaders in the religion's early years.

I also find it odd that defending the false religion of Islam seems such a priority for some self-proclaimed Christians.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1284689' date='May 30 2007, 07:00 PM']Thank you for introducing this topic. I don't think I've ever explicitly made the claim that you suggest (i.e. a Muslim must denounce their religion to be peaceful), though this was directed at "several individuals."[/quote] Why do you have to turn every thread into a thread about you? Sorry but I'm not remotely interested but thank you for your interest, it was kind and if I were that sort of individual, I might accept your offer, but I'm not that type of individual.

[code]If I'm part of your target group, I'd love you to show me a quote where I make this claim. I would hate you to bear false witness yet again.[/code] As I'd stated above, you don't know if you're part of my "target group" or not, so stop making every thread about you. In regards to bearing false witness, I'd never done this, and if you have a problem with statements that I'd made, send me a PM, this thread isn't about you or me, and as I'd stated above, I'm not remotely interested.

[code]In any event, I understand why people see Islam and peace as incompatible. Plenty of ex-Muslims would accept this point of view. In fact, I think that the secular Turks have this thought in the back of their minds as they are struggling to keep themselves from being overrun by Islamic fundamentalism.[/code] This isn't about this, it's about the Qur'an, if you have something to discuss concerning the Qur'an post it, otherwise please refrain from hi-jacking this thread.

[code]I'll point you in the direction of some decent discussion on this subject here:
[url=http://www.answering-islam.org/Index/P/peace.html]http://www.answering-islam.org/Index/P/peace.html[/url][/code] Please use your own words rather then postinig propaganda as to why you believe what you believe. If you genuinely believe that Islam is incompatable with peace, you can write your own statements and genuinely support your position based upon the Qur'an and Hadeeths. If not, then don't post.

[code]I'm not interested in [i]ad hominem[/i] against the website (if you have a prejudice). If you have trouble with their arguments, let your counter-arguments focus on the authors' text, not their motives.[/code]
Sorry but this thread isn't about your propaganda websites, it's about the Quran and Hadeeths. I'm not going to make my "counter-arguments" based upon your propaganda website, as this thread isn't about your propaganda website, it's about the Quran and Hadeeths. If you chose to debate the Quran and Hadeeths do so with your own words, not the words of a propaganda website.


[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1284693' date='May 30 2007, 07:05 PM']By the way, it's not entirely clear what your background is. At times you suggest that you grew up in a fundamentalist Christian (or quasi-Christian) sect, considered Islam, but never embraced it. At other times, you talk as if you are an apostate who grew up as a Muslim and renounced Islam. Could you clarify?

This is clearly detailed and outlined in another thread [which I will find for you later] in which Catholic Annonymous and myself both shared our testimonies. Send me a PM if you wish.

[quote]In addition, you mention "sisters", but I know that this can be a figurative relationship. Do you actually have biological sisters who are Muslims? I don't mean to pry, but I'm trying to understand where you're coming from.[/quote] I was orphaned as a young child, and so I was fostered by several families. I'm Native American/European by race, culturally most of my education comes from Muslims, which is why I don't talk with my blood family as much as my foster famlies.


[quote name='Socrates' post='1284724' date='May 30 2007, 07:42 PM']On other threads in the past, I have brought up a number of quotes from the Qu'ran explicitly calling for war and violence against non-Muslims, but was simply told by the Islamic-apologists on here that these passages were misinterpreted or badly translated. Absolutely nothing was done however to provide "correct" translations or inform me as to what the "correct" interpretations were.
Therefore, I feel bringing them up again will be futile, and the response will likely leave me equally unconvinced of the peaceful nature of "true Islam."[/quote] Maybe it's because you were interpreting them wrong? If you weren't, then feel free to back up your claims about Islam.

[quote]However, I could dig them up again if Reza truly wants to explain in detail the "true meaning" of these passages (rather than simply saying they're misinterpreted or mis-translated).[/quote]Socrates, I'm more then willing, as I have sent Catholic Annonymous an email for him to also participate in this discussion.

[quote]And to look at the "true nature" of a religion's teachings, I believe it best to look at the religion's historical roots. In the first centuries of its existence, Islam was hardly spread by peaceful, non-violent means. Violence is not some later abberant development of Islam, but its original means of spreading, and the Muslim leaders took the Qu'ran passages about making war on infidels quite literally.[/quote] This is something for another thread, if you'd like, please start a thread about the history of Islam but again the history of Islam doesn't dictate what Muslims believe or weather or not someone can be a good muslim and be peaceful. Their doctrine strictly has to do with the Quran. If you want to talk history, I can prove that it started as a Sect of Christianity, like Protestantism, but this thread isn't about that.

[quote]I find it odd to think that the Qu'ran was consistantly "misinterpreted" by Islamic leaders in the religion's early years.[/quote]I never said that, but again this isn't about the history of Islam, it's about what the Qur'an and Hadeeths genuinely say.

[quote]I also find it odd that defending the false religion of Islam seems such a priority for some self-proclaimed Christians.[/quote] I can speak for myself and I'm pretty sure that I can speak for Catholic Annonymous: Jesus said to live in spirit and in truth, if anyone, especially our Christian bothers make false claims about our Muslim brothers, we have a right and obligation to set the record straight.

Reza

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1284803' date='May 30 2007, 11:17 PM']As I'd stated above, you don't know if you're part of my "target group" or not, so stop making every thread about you. In regards to bearing false witness, I'd never done this, and if you have a problem with statements that I'd made, send me a PM, this thread isn't about you or me, and as I'd stated above, I'm not remotely interested.[/quote]You made an accusation and directed it at an unnamed group of posters here. At least you should have the decency to let us all know who you're maligning.

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1284803' date='May 30 2007, 11:17 PM']Please use your own words rather then postinig propaganda as to why you believe what you believe.[/quote]What a surprise: [i]ad hominem[/i].

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1284803' date='May 30 2007, 11:17 PM']If you genuinely believe that Islam is incompatable with peace, you can write your own statements and genuinely support your position based upon the Qur'an and Hadeeths. If not, then don't post.[/quote]I'm free to post whenever I choose, subject to the moderators. Get over it.

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1284803' date='May 30 2007, 11:17 PM']Socrates, I'm more then willing, as I have sent Catholic Annonymous an email for him to also participate in this discussion.[/quote]Just FYI: Cathoholic Anonymous is a she.

[Socrates]

I gave these Qu'ran quotes in another thread.

[quote]You to whom the Scriptures were given! Believe in what we have revealed, confirming your own Scriptures, before We obliterate your faces and turn them backward, or lay our Curse upon you.[/quote](Qu'ran 4:47)

[quote]Make war on [the infidels]until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme.[/quote](Qu'ran 8:40)

[quote]Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you.[/quote](Qu'ran 9:123)

[quote]When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them; besiege them; and lay in ambush everywhere for them. If they convert and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way.[/quote](Qu'ran 9:5)

[quote][b]Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given as believe not in God [/b]. . . who do not forbid what God and his Apostle have forbidden, and do not embrace the true faith until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued.[/quote] (Qu'ran 9:29)
The emphasis in the last is added - it refers to the Christians and Jews (those "People of the Book" to whom the Scriptures were given, but who do not accept the rules of Islam.)
This passage was the basis for a heavy punitive poll tax placed on Christians and Jews in lands conquered by Muslims.

[Mateo el Feo]

Just curious Reza, if you would help us understand the Islamic/Quranic peace that Copts deserve in Egypt. Are the Egyptian Muslims falling short of the "true Islam" of the Quran? In what way could they get closer to the command of the Quran, the oft-quoted [i]ayat[/i], 9:29:[quote]Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.[/quote]Shouldn't the Copts rightfully feel subdued (as second-class citizens)? Is that the peace you're thinking of? Or is there another peace that the Copts deserve?

My point is: maybe the Quranic description of peace isn't a real peace at all.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1284858' date='May 30 2007, 08:34 PM']You made an accusation and directed it at an unnamed group of posters here. At least you should have the decency to let us all know who you're maligning.[/quote] Again, stop making this about you. I could give a ...... about you, alright? This ain't about you, and if you take this thread "so personally", then don't post, alright?

[quote]What a surprise: [i]ad hominem[/i].[/quote] And what a surprise that you seem incapable of speaking your own words and thinking your own thoughts, and defending your own position without someone feeding something into your ear. If you have a problem with verses in the Quran, then state them here.

[quote]I'm free to post whenever I choose, subject to the moderators. Get over it.[/quote] It has to do with respect, this thread isn't about what you're posting, and you're hi-jacking, what could be a fruitful discussion with your personal problems. Take your personal problems somewhere else, seriously.

Reza

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1284988' date='May 31 2007, 01:39 AM']Again, stop making this about you. I could give a ...... about you, alright? This ain't about you, and if you take this thread "so personally", then don't post, alright?[/quote]My comment was about the unnamed posters you are attacking. I didn't even mention myself. Yet another example of your poor reading comprehension.

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1284988' date='May 31 2007, 01:39 AM']And what a surprise that you seem incapable of speaking your own words and thinking your own thoughts, and defending your own position without someone feeding something into your ear. If you have a problem with verses in the Quran, then state them here.[/quote]I did. So did Socrates. Next time, please read the thread before responding so you don't repeat this kind of mistake.

Edited May 31, 2007 by Mateo el Feo

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1284992' date='May 30 2007, 10:51 PM']My comment was about the unnamed posters you are attacking. I didn't even mention myself. Yet another example of your poor reading comprehension.[/quote] I never attacked anyone, I simply said their opinion of Islam [which I never mentioned you personally] and asked them to prove it in a Qur'anic discussion. You've turned this into a thread about you and applied my particular comment [which didn't mention you by name] into a direct attack towards you, yourself. Not that it was meant to apply to you, but maybe it does apply to you, since you were making it apply.

As I'd mentioned, it had nothing to do with you, as the purpose of this thread was to have a Qur'anic discussion, and you've once again taken everything personally and turned it into a discussion about you. If you really want to know what I think about you, send me a PM and I'd be more then happy to share it with you

[quote]I did. So did Socrates. Next time, please read the thread before responding so you don't repeat this kind of mistake.
[/quote]I did read your response, as my comments were directed at your post:

[quote]I'll point you in the direction of some decent discussion on this subject here:
[url="http://www.answering-islam.org/Index/P/peace.html"]http://www.answering-islam.org/Index/P/peace.html[/url]

I'm not interested in ad hominem against the website (if you have a prejudice). If you have trouble with their arguments, let your counter-arguments focus on the authors' text, not their motives.[/quote]

I'm not going to respond to your propaganda website, alright? It has nothing to do with this discussion, as I'd said over and over again if you have something to say that involves the Qur'an, just say it in your own words, don't say, "well such and such website says" and post a propaganda based website.

Your post that regarded Qur'anic verses, and Socrates weren't posted until after, you'd made these other ridiculous comments and I'm going to answer the Qur'anic verses in due time, as I'm tryinig to get others involved in this conversation and hopefully persuade you to get over the fact that this discussion isn't about you.

Reza

Edited May 31, 2007 by RezaLemmyng

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1285017' date='May 31 2007, 03:51 AM']and hopefully persuade you to get over the fact that this discussion isn't about you.[/quote]You can repeat a lie as often as you like...but it's still a lie.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1285018' date='May 31 2007, 12:54 AM']You can repeat a lie as often as you like...but it's still a lie.[/quote]

With every amount of respect, it was you that came in here all emotional, claiming that I attacked you [thou I didn't even mention your name ], turning, what would have been a great conversation, into a conversation about you. There's nothing to lie about, everyone can go back and re-read, how I began a conversation about the Qur'an and Hadeeths, and you turned it into a discussion about you. I'd asked you several times to post something about the Qur'an and Hadeeths or don't post nothing, but in nearly everyone of your posts, you talk about yourself. Therefore who's blowing this into something that it wasn't intended to be? Who's the one getting emotional and all personal with it? It surely ain't me...

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1285031' date='May 31 2007, 04:36 AM']With every amount of respect, it was you that came in here all emotional, claiming that I attacked you [thou I didn't even mention your name ], turning, what would have been a great conversation, into a conversation about you. There's nothing to lie about, everyone can go back and re-read, how I began a conversation about the Qur'an and Hadeeths, and you turned it into a discussion about you. I'd asked you several times to post something about the Qur'an and Hadeeths or don't post nothing, but in nearly everyone of your posts, you talk about yourself. Therefore who's blowing this into something that it wasn't intended to be? Who's the one getting emotional and all personal with it? It surely ain't me...[/quote]I'll be waiting for you to comment on Socrates' and my posts. Surely it ain't you...