Pope Restoring Vatican's Muslim Office

[mortify]

Muslims wanting to pray in Churches

[url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/pope/story/0,,1979139,00.html"]http://www.guardian.co.uk/pope/story/0,,1979139,00.html[/url]

(in other words, reclaim lost territory)

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='mortify' post='1284330' date='May 30 2007, 11:37 AM']Muslims wanting to pray in Churches

[url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/pope/story/0,,1979139,00.html"]http://www.guardian.co.uk/pope/story/0,,1979139,00.html[/url]

(in other words, reclaim lost territory)[/quote]

Yeah, when Turkey opens up the Hagia Sophia for Christian prayer.

[chelsea]

[quote name='mortify' post='1284330' date='May 30 2007, 01:37 PM']Muslims wanting to pray in Churches

[url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/pope/story/0,,1979139,00.html"]http://www.guardian.co.uk/pope/story/0,,1979139,00.html[/url]

(in other words, reclaim lost territory)[/quote]

they should be allowed to pray there. I'm gonna get attacked for this but: [b]anyone should be allowed to pray wherever they want.[/b]

[mortify]

Chelsea, the first problem is that Muslims are not reciprocal in what they desire from us. Do you suppose the Hagia Sophia will be restored as a Church? Will Saudis allow the building of Churches, or will other Arab nations permit reconstruction of old churches? How do you expect Muslims to allow us to pray in Mosques when they view our faith as a cancer that must be rooted out. We can't project our view of the world onto everyone else.

I think there is a certain indifferentism underlying all of this, and that's the bigger problem. A Church is sacred space because of the presence of our Lord, I'm not sure false ritual should be allowed there, though a non-Christian could visit. It would be interesting if anyone familiar with Canon Law could comment on this.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='chelsea' post='1284341' date='May 30 2007, 11:52 AM']they should be allowed to pray there. I'm gonna get attacked for this but: [b]anyone should be allowed to pray wherever they want.[/b][/quote]

Why is it that the biggest mosque in Europe is located in Rome, but one can't wear a cross publicly in Saudi Arabia?

[chelsea]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1284368' date='May 30 2007, 02:12 PM']Why is it that the biggest mosque in Europe is located in Rome, but one can't wear a cross publicly in Saudi Arabia?[/quote]


we cannot force others to be charitable and open. We can only be the best Christians that we can be. Why should be base our actions on what everyone else is doing? Maybe if we were to allow Muslims to pray in that cathedral again (as well as jews, hindus, WHOMEVER) then it would be the first step towards allowing crosses in Saudi Arabia. Now, that is doubtful. But somebody has to take the first step. Why not Catholics?

[mortify]

[quote name='chelsea' post='1284371' date='May 30 2007, 12:17 PM']we cannot force others to be charitable and open. We can only be the best Christians that we can be. Why should be base our actions on what everyone else is doing? Maybe if we were to allow Muslims to pray in that cathedral again (as well as jews, hindus, WHOMEVER) then it would be the first step towards allowing crosses in Saudi Arabia. Now, that is doubtful. But somebody has to take the first step. Why not Catholics?[/quote]

Chelsea, because we've already take the first steps with a religion that is intrinsically intolerant. We were the one's initiate ecumenism, I've had priests tell me Islam is peaceful and that Catholicism is violent, the West as a whole is a very open and tolerant society. It's time for Muslims to step up, but it wont happen, and do you know why? Because it would mean losing their faith. Islam is a religion that is meant to dominate over others (Surah 48:28), not play on an equal playing field with a religion (Christianity) it supposedly succeeds.

[chelsea]

[quote name='mortify' post='1284381' date='May 30 2007, 02:28 PM']Chelsea, because we've already take the first steps with a religion that is intrinsically intolerant. We were the one's initiate ecumenism, I've had priests tell me Islam is peaceful and that Catholicism is violent, the West as a whole is a very open and tolerant society. It's time for Muslims to step up, but it wont happen, and do you know why? Because it would mean losing their faith. Islam is a religion that is meant to dominate over others (Surah 48:28), not play on an equal playing field with a religion (Christianity) it supposedly succeeds.[/quote]

So that justifies uncharitable behavior on our part?

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='mortify' post='1284366' date='May 30 2007, 12:08 PM']I think there is a certain indifferentism underlying all of this, and that's the bigger problem. A Church is sacred space because of the presence of our Lord, I'm not sure false ritual should be allowed there, though a non-Christian could visit. It would be interesting if anyone familiar with Canon Law could comment on this.[/quote]


[quote name='chelsea' post='1284388' date='May 30 2007, 12:34 PM']So that justifies uncharitable behavior on our part?[/quote]

Mortify has an excellent point vis-a-vis the presence the Lord in what in this case is a cathedral. Churches aren't social clubs, places where we can be happy-clappy and all just get along -- they're places to worship the Living God.

As I said in my original post, I'm all for dialogue and freedom of conscience. That doesn't mean I have to let somebody in [i]my[/i] house and let them do things [i]their[/i] way.

Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and the Catholic Church the Custodian of His Truth. I don't want anyone making the mistake of inferring any kind of equivalence between Truth and falsehood.

So, no, we should never act uncharitably. But we must respectfully demur on the request to turn a cathedral into a One Size Fits All place for prayer.

[jeffpugh]

I have to say the article CatholicCid put forward was very informative. Mortify, Don't kid yourself. The west has been very violent in the past. We can easily start with our interior struggles, such as the inquisitions (though I know there is less violence that happened there than many people let on... especially protestants. Btw this was a pretty political matter in itself), and the list goes on... now, on the other hand, Islam is pretty much a religion of force. I haven't realised until recently how much we're putting into this "dialogue' and how much they're not. Why can't people just show some respect. My opinion is, that we should just hang back for a while and just be charitable, but not go actively dialoguing. In this world which everyone treats like a game, we should end our turn now and let the others make their move.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1284451' date='May 30 2007, 03:09 PM']I have to say the article CatholicCid put forward was very informative. Mortify, Don't kid yourself. The west has been very violent in the past. We can easily start with our interior struggles, such as the inquisitions (though I know there is less violence that happened there than many people let on... especially protestants. Btw this was a pretty political matter in itself), and the list goes on... now, on the other hand, Islam is pretty much a religion of force. I haven't realised until recently how much we're putting into this "dialogue' and how much they're not. Why can't people just show some respect. My opinion is, that we should just hang back for a while and just be charitable, but not go actively dialoguing. In this world which everyone treats like a game, we should end our turn now and let the others make their move.[/quote]

But here's the point: you have to go back to The Inquisition as an example of Catholic violence, 400-500 years ago, or to the Crusades, almost 1,000 years. When was the last suicide attack? This afternoon?

[chelsea]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1284457' date='May 30 2007, 05:19 PM']But here's the point: you have to go back to The Inquisition as an example of Catholic violence, 400-500 years ago, or to the Crusades, almost 1,000 years. When was the last suicide attack? This afternoon?[/quote]

You cannot characterize a religion by the few people who do such things. While yes, there are Muslims who are violent and carry on these attacks, the entire Islamic faith isnt like that.

[mortify]

[quote name='chelsea' post='1284513' date='May 30 2007, 04:37 PM']You cannot characterize a religion by the few people who do such things. While yes, there are Muslims who are violent and carry on these attacks, the entire Islamic faith isnt like that.[/quote]

Chelsea, the unfortunate reality is that Islam is intrinsically violent. Muslims who act out in violence only do so because their religion teaches that violence is a legitimate means of spreading religion.


[quote]Mortify, Don't kid yourself. The west has been very violent in the past.[/quote]

Sacred Music Man, I'm talking about the present. The West is the most tolerant and accepting place in the world.

[jeffpugh]

I appologise, Mortify. I see your point now. Furthermore, I must reiterate my compliance with your point that Islam is fundamentally aggressive. I'm still waiting for them to comply with our "dialogue".

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1284182' date='May 30 2007, 07:16 AM']The difference is, the Jews are a Covenant people, and Judaism the root from which Christianity grew. Islam, on the other hand, is man-made religion, and as someone on this board put it, essentially a heresy of Christianity because it denies the divinity of Jesus.[/quote]

Actually much of Judaism is also manmade, research the Talmud and you'll find that out.


[quote name='mortify' post='1284366' date='May 30 2007, 11:08 AM']Chelsea, the first problem is that Muslims are not reciprocal in what they desire from us. Do you suppose the Hagia Sophia will be restored as a Church? Will Saudis allow the building of Churches, or will other Arab nations permit reconstruction of old churches? How do you expect Muslims to allow us to pray in Mosques when they view our faith as a cancer that must be rooted out. We can't project our view of the world onto everyone else.[/quote] This largely has to do with politics and culture, not Islam. As you might know, the Saudi gov. is unlike most Islamic gov. as is it's ideology of Islam.

[quote]I think there is a certain indifferentism underlying all of this, and that's the bigger problem. A Church is sacred space because of the presence of our Lord, I'm not sure false ritual should be allowed there, though a non-Christian could visit. It would be interesting if anyone familiar with Canon Law could comment on this.
[/quote]I'd definately agree with you, the church isn't the place for inter-faith prayers. That's almost as bad as giving non-Christians communion.


[quote name='mortify' post='1284381' date='May 30 2007, 11:28 AM']
Chelsea, because we've already take the first steps with a religion that is intrinsically intolerant.[/quote] See that's the problem, I don't think that the Roman Pope sees the religion the same way that you do.

[quote]We were the one's initiate ecumenism, I've had priests tell me Islam is peaceful and that Catholicism is violent, the West as a whole is a very open and tolerant society.[/quote]The west has gone through reformations that eventually Islam might grasp onto, but the west still has a great history of vioelence according to the average Muslim in the middle east. I mean the bullets being fired at them in Palestine are American financed and often times American made, same in Iraq. Muslims see that in a much greater light.

[quote]It's time for Muslims to step up, but it wont happen, and do you know why? Because it would mean losing their faith. Islam is a religion that is meant to dominate over others (Surah 48:28), not play on an equal playing field with a religion (Christianity) it supposedly succeeds.[/quote] Mort, I'm going to ask you a question: Why do you keep saying that Islam is a violent religion, and misquote Qur'anic text, despite being set straight by numoerus people on this thread [such as Catholic Annonymous] over and over again? Surah 48:28 has nothing to do with violence as you're insisting. Even moreso, the Quran has a context that you obviously don't understand.

Muslims have been engaging in peace for a very long time, and currently still are doing so... if Muslims hated the Roman Pope, he wouldn't even be able to visit turkey, Egypt, etc. If Muslims truely are violent as you insist, the Pope would never be able to engage in dialog with the Coptic Orthodox Church, which is currently happening between the Roman Catholic Church and the Coptic Church in Egypt.


[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1284451' date='May 30 2007, 02:09 PM']I have to say the article CatholicCid put forward was very informative.[/quote] It was a great article for dialog wasn't it?

[quote]Mortify, Don't kid yourself. The west has been very violent in the past.[/quote]Can I get an amen?

We can easily start with our interior struggles, such as the inquisitions (though I know there is less violence that happened there than many people let on... especially protestants. Btw this was a pretty political matter in itself), and the list goes on...[/quote] It's important to not clump every "Christian" together, as Muslims do and not clump every Muslim together as Christians do. The KKK proclaims to be "Christians", but are they the Roman Catholic Church's responsiblity? Do they speak for the Roman Catholic Church? Are their violent acts a representation of the Roman Catholic Church and Christianity? Then why do we use the Saudi Gov.'s ideology [that is often had it's problems] and say, "that's true Islam"? Just as the KKK have no bearing on Christianity as a whole, the Saudi Gov. Ideology has no bearing on the average Muslim. Notice that the Saudi Gov, disagrees with the Iranian gov and the Iranian gov disagrees with the Palestinian gov., etc. on Ideology.

Reza