Pope Restoring Vatican's Muslim Office

[Jaime]

Seriously folks, this is in no way shape or form an act of appeasement to muslims or any group.

[chelsea]

[quote name='T-Bone' post='1283743' date='May 29 2007, 09:07 PM']How would you all feel about our Holy Father praying in a synagogue?[/quote]


is there a reason he shouldnt?

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1283426' date='May 29 2007, 11:01 AM']He said the move shows the importance the Vatican attaches to dialogue with other religions.[/quote] Dialog is acceptable, but I don't recall St. Athansius ever attempting to "pray" with Arians in order for dialog to occur, infact I don't recall those at Nicea ever attempting to even give the Arians an attempt at dialog.

[quote]Church relations with Muslims were badly strained after a speech by Benedict in Germany in September that linked Islam to violence. Benedict said he regretted that Muslims were offended by his remarks.[/quote]It's important that he admits that he made a mistake, that's very much seen as an outreach to Muslims. His Holiness Pope Shenouda III, after Pope Benedict's comments, said, "any remarks which offend Islam and Muslims are against the teachings of Christ"

[quote]In November, the German-born pope made what was considered a successful visit to predominantly Muslim Turkey. [b]During the trip, the pope prayed alongside a Muslim clergyman while visiting a mosque.[/b][/i][/quote] This is a very contraversal situation, because praying with them, could be taken as accepting a theology, that both Muslims and Christians serve the same God, or view God similarly. His Holiness Pope St. Kyrillos VI wasn't known to pray with Muslims but to pray for them. He'd also made it a tradition of inviting Muslims to the Christmas celebrations in Egypt, in which the President of Egypt regularly attended. I don't recall him ever going to a mosque to pray thou, rather he invited them to our churches instead.

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' post='1283570' date='May 29 2007, 02:17 PM']Very important to point out that while Papa Ben DID pray in a mosque, he did NOT unfurl a prayer mat, prostrate himself, and face Mecca whilst doing it.[/quote] Do we know the specifics of his prayers and what actions were taken in the mosque? Was it ever detailed?

[quote]Just 'cause he prays in a mosque does not mean he is worshiping the Muslim idea of God.[/quote]It's not even nessessarily the situation of "where he prayed", as we're instructed as Christians to pray everywhere that we roam, but it's the situation of praying with a Muslim cleric, in a mosque [with possibly everything else that goes with it, which we don't know much more details regarding].


[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1283574' date='May 29 2007, 02:20 PM']
The Christians and the Mohammadans do not adore the same God.[/quote] There's no such thing as "Mohammadans", and in regards to Muslims, that's like calling a black man a Ni**ar, it's very slanderous and just doesn't make sense.

[code]The Christians adore the true God who is one God in three Divine Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Muslims aren't that much different then Christians thou, Islam began as a sect of Christianity, not unlike Protestantism, so it should be viewed as such.[/code]

[code]The Mohammadans do not adore the Son and the Holy Ghost, and therefore do not adore the Father.[/code]
You're incorperating Christian theology and applying it to Muslims, sorry but no cigar. Jews also don't adore Jesus Christ, does that mean that they don't adore the father?

[quote name='mortify' post='1283728' date='May 29 2007, 05:54 PM']Personally I think it's confusing. The Pope was on the right track in the beginning, he needs to stay on the course of Truth no matter what the criticism is.[/quote] Let me get this straight, you're saying that he was on the right path, by insulting Muslims and offending them to the point that it caused physical harm to other Christians and generally speaking hurt the ministry of Christians ministering to Muslims worldwide?

[code]Who cares what the Muslims think, we don't need to apologize for speaking truthfully about their religion.[/code] Well it's the truth as you see it, but most people wouldn't agree with you. It's also very important to care what Muslims think, as it's our responsiblity to not alienate them more then we have in the past, but to embrace them and bring them into the knowledge of Jesus Christ. It's a very selfish attitude to suggest otherwise, and to quote His Holiness Pope Shenouda III, "any remarks which offend Islam and Muslims are against the teachings of Christ"

Back when I was a Muslim, it was individuals like Pope Shenouda III that brought me closer to Jesus Christ and those that had the attitude of "who cares what Muslims think", that brought me further from Jesus Christ.

[quote name='T-Bone' post='1283743' date='May 29 2007, 06:07 PM']How would you all feel about our Holy Father praying in a synagogue?[/quote]

Good question


[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1283756' date='May 29 2007, 06:31 PM']I think that dialogue is overrated, and that it would be far better to try and convert Muslims to Christianity.[/quote] What if the dialog was but a single step towards coverting them? Perhaps you should research the Zaballeen that live in Garbage City, Egypt? Here's a video about it: [url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6900938085921020443&q=Zaballeen"]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6...amp;q=Zaballeen[/url] Notice that the Priest didn't simply offend Muslims with the attitude of, "oh well, if I offend them" but rather used honey to get more bees not vinigar.

[code]As far as the Pope's praying with infidels is concerned, this kind of activity will cause problems with the Eastern Orthodox, who see it as a form of theological indifferentism.[/code]


No it wont, rather it will have the opposite affect.

[quote name='chelsea' post='1283932' date='May 29 2007, 08:30 PM']is there a reason he shouldnt?[/quote]

Another great question.

[mortify]

[quote]Seriously folks, this is in no way shape or form an act of appeasement to muslims or any group.[/quote]C'mon hot stuff, you mean the Pope's visit to Turkey after the Regensberg "scandal" wasn't a means of appeasing Muslims? All the talk about him supporting Turkey in the EU (which he never did in the past) and saying Islam is peaceful and praying with Muslims at a mosque... nothing do with appeasment?

[quote]Let me get this straight, you're saying that he was on the right path, by insulting Muslims and offending them to the point that it caused physical harm to other Christians and generally speaking hurt the ministry of Christians ministering to Muslims worldwide?[/quote]

Reza, he *quoted* the opinion of a Byzantine Emperor. Is that all it takes to offend the Islamic world? Take a look at some of these responses and ask yourself whether the Byzantine Emperor the Pope quoted was right:

[color="#FF0000"]"We tell the worshipper of the cross (the Pope) that you and the West will be defeated, as is the case in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya,"

"We shall break the cross and spill the wine. ... God will (help) Muslims to conquer Rome. ... God enable us to slit their throats, and make their money and descendants the bounty of the mujahideen,"[/color]

From: [url="http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/17/pope.islam/index.html?section=cnn_world"]http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/17...ction=cnn_world[/url]


Reza, why aren't you more troubled with these statements? Aren't you troubled that we can't even engage Islam intellectually, in the mode of academic dialogue, without Muslims threatening to kill us?

The Muslim response only proves the point.

[quote]Well it's the truth as you see it, but most people wouldn't agree with you. It's also very important to care what Muslims think, as it's our responsiblity to not alienate them more then we have in the past, but to embrace them and bring them into the knowledge of Jesus Christ. It's a very selfish attitude to suggest otherwise, and to quote His Holiness Pope Shenouda III, "any remarks which offend Islam and Muslims are against the teachings of Christ"[/quote]I can't think of anything more embracing than modern civilization. It seems everyone is capable of assimilating except the Muslims. We've done our part, we have classes that teach apologetic versions of Islam, we have ecumenical dialogues, with have Priests teaching the laity Islam is a peaceful religion. Honestly Reza, it's time to see some steps made by Muslims. When will the Saudis allow us to build Churches? When will a Muslim Leader venerate the Holy Sacrament? When will they start hosting ecumenical dialogues?

We have a right to demand recipricocity.

[quote]Back when I was a Muslim, it was individuals like Pope Shenouda III that brought me closer to Jesus Christ and those that had the attitude of "who cares what Muslims think", that brought me further from Jesus Christ.[/quote]

So you're a murtad as well? I'm glad you accepted Christ, God willing without much harm. One Copt's witness to the Gospel played a big part in my conversion, the first time I saw the Holy Spirit work through someone. But anyway, yielding to the whims of Muslims is not a means of evangelization. Backing down only puffs up their pride, makes them feel we are weak and unable to stand up to them. Courage in confronting the problems intellectually is the appropriate way of evangelizing, even amidst the difficulties and threats, it only proves we are right.

Edited May 30, 2007 by mortify

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1283994' date='May 29 2007, 08:58 PM']You're incorperating Christian theology and applying it to Muslims, sorry but no cigar. Jews also don't adore Jesus Christ, does that mean that they don't adore the father?[/quote]
That's because Christian theology (i.e., the revelation of God in Christ) is the truth, while Islam is a false religion. Muhammad is not a prophet. Moreover, the ancient canons of the Church forbid praying with heretics, infidels, and pagans. That said, a Christian can certainly pray [b]for[/b] a Muslim (i.e., that he be released from the false religion of Muhammad), but there is no way for a Christian to pray [b]with[/b] a Muslim, because all Christian prayer is made to the Father, through the Son, in the power and energy of the Holy Spirit.

Christian prayer is not directed to a "generic" or "abstract" God. In other words, Christians do not worship an abstract concept; instead, we worship the tri-hypostatic God.

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1283994' date='May 29 2007, 08:58 PM'][quote name='Apotheoun' post='1283756' date='May 29 2007, 06:31 PM']As far as the Pope's praying with infidels is concerned, this kind of activity will cause problems with the Eastern Orthodox, who see it as a form of theological indifferentism.[/quote]
No it wont, rather it will have the opposite affect.[/quote]
Missionary activity is the real answer, instead of acting as if Muhammad is prophet and Islam is a true religion. Islam explicitly denies the divinity of Christ and the dogma of the Holy Trinity, and there is no middle ground between the truth and falsehood. As St. John said: "No one who denies the Son has the Father. [But] he who confesses the Son has the Father also." [1 John 2:23]

Moreover, theological indifferentism is an obstacle to ecumenical dialogue with the Eastern Orthodox Churches, and I say this as one who has many Eastern Orthodox friends -- all of whom are scandalized by the actions of the last two Popes in praying with infidels. I am also a contributor at Eastern Orthodox blog, and I attend Church on a fairly regular basis at two different Eastern Orthodox parishes near my home.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1284095' date='May 29 2007, 11:21 PM']That's because Christian theology (i.e., the revelation of God in Christ) is the truth, while Islam is a false religion. Muhammad is not a prophet. Moreover, the ancient canons of the Church forbid praying with heretics, infidels, and pagans. That said, a Christian can certainly pray [b]for[/b] a Muslim (i.e., that he be released from the false religion of Muhammad), but there is no way for a Christian to pray [b]with[/b] a Muslim, because all Christian prayer is made to the Father, through the Son, in the power and energy of the Holy Spirit.[/quote]

So is the Roman Catholic Pope in violation of that?

[quote]Moreover, theological indifferentism is an obstacle to ecumenical dialogue with the Eastern Orthodox Churches, and I say this as one who has many Eastern Orthodox friends -- all of whom are scandalized by the actions of the last two Popes in praying with infidels. I am also a contributor at Eastern Orthodox blog, and I attend Church on a fairly regular basis at two different Eastern Orthodox parishes near my home.[/quote] I'm happy for you, but I know many Palestinian Eastern Orthodox Priests [as most churches in Palestine are Greek Orthodox] that would see it quite differently.

Reza

[Apotheoun]

I wouldn't doubt that they feel differently, because if they spoke out against Islam they would be beheaded. Much like the priest recently beheaded in Iraq.

Christians living in Islamic societies are second class citizens (if even that).

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1284098' date='May 29 2007, 11:47 PM']So is the Roman Catholic Pope in violation of that?[/quote]
Sadly, yes he is.

And as I have said already, it is a new obstacle to ecumenical dialogue with the Eastern Orthodox. You can read the letters issued by the monks of Mt. Athos on the subject by doing a google search.

May the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- the only true God -- bless you,
Todd

[Apotheoun]

Reza,

Can a man worship the Father without worshipping the Son?

And

Who is the way, the truth, and the life?

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1283426' date='May 29 2007, 12:01 PM']In November, the German-born pope made what was considered a successful visit to predominantly Muslim Turkey. [b]During the trip, the pope prayed alongside a Muslim clergyman while visiting a mosque.
[/b][/i][/quote]

If I remember this moment correctly, the Pope was touring the 'Blue Mosque' with Mustafa Cagrici, the grand mufti of Istanbul. The mufti stopped to pray during the tour and while waiting, the Pope possibly took the time to think of God.

[quote]The second "moment" truly was just a moment. It lasted only a few seconds, and occurred in complete silence. It occurred during Benedict’s visit to the famed "Blue Mosque" of Istanbul, renowned throughout the world for its grandeur and beauty.

And, though the first moment was historic for Catholic-Orthodox relations, it was the second which may go down in history as one of the most significant of Benedict’s pontificate.

And this shows that, in such matters, external, visible signs may be of less importance than the moment’s inner meaning. For the inner meaning of a thing is something that cannot be seen or heard, but only understood with the mind, or heart (or perhaps half-understood).

At the entrance of the mosque, Benedict took off his shoes, as is the custom. And he walked forward into the great expanse in his stocking feet, wearing his golden pectoral cross in full view over his white cassock. (It was the second time a pope had entered a Muslim place of worship; Pope John Paul II visited a mosque in Damascus, Syria, in 2001.)

Beside Benedict was Mustafa Cagrici, the grand mufti of Istanbul. He was Benedict’s guide, explaining to him the history and architecture of the mosque, built by Sultan Ahmet I in the early 1600s.

When the two reached the "mihrab" niche that points the way toward Mecca, the mufti turned to Benedict and said he was going to pray. (Whether the Pope knew in advance that the mufti was going to do this, is not clear.)

"In this space everyone stops to pray for 30 seconds, to gain serenity," the mufti said.

And then the mufti closed his eyes and began to pray.

The pope stood alongside him, bowed his head and, for a moment, waited, silent, motionless.

And then he began to move his lips, just a bit.

Silently.

There was no sound, no words spoken audibly.

"It was an unforgettable moment," my colleague, Serena Sartini, an Italian journalist from Florence who writes for Inside the Vatican and was standing a few feet from the Pope as he prayed, told me this evening as we ate dinner together. "There was no sound at all, just the sound of all the camera shutters - click, click, click, echoing through the stillness. I’ve never heard anything like it."

Benedict’s moving lips were captured by television cameras and transmitted by satellite instantaneously around the world, to the ends of the earth.

For this moment, Benedict was not teaching, or explicating, or lecturing. He was not debating historical events and their meaning. He was not the "German professor," the "professor pope."

He was "the pope of prayer."

But he was praying in a very unusual place, for a pope: in a Muslim mosque. One of the leading Muslim mosques in the world. And mosques are places dedicated to Allah, not to the Trinitarian God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Was this right?

Perhaps the Pope was not really "praying" at all? Perhaps he was just "meditating"? Was this possible?

No, because when the two men continued on their way (as Serena, who was there and could hear everything, related to me), the pope said to the mufti, "Thank you for this moment of prayer." There seems no doubt, then, that Benedict was indeed praying.

The Pope’s spokesman, Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi, was asked about this later by journalists. Was it really a prayer?

At first Lombardi seemed to hesitate, saying "the pope paused in meditation, and certainly he turned his thoughts to God."

Then he said that this could be called a moment of personal prayer, but one which did not include any of the exterior signs of Christian prayer, like a sign of the cross. In this way, Lombardi said, the pope underlined what unites Christians and Muslims, rather than any differences.

"In this sense it was a personal, intimate prayer to God," Father Lombardi said, which "can easily be expressed with his mind and with his thoughts also in a mosque, where many people cultivate the same spiritual attitude."

The essence of this argument would seem to be that the pope - or any Christian - may pray to God anywhere, not just in a Christian church, but even outdoors, even in a prison cell, even in a non- Christian place of worship, like a mosque.

Why would Benedict do this, and risk scandalizing some Christians, who may feel it was wrong of him to pray in a building specifically not dedicated to the triune God of Christian faith?

The answer seems to lie, in part, in Benedict’s somber, realistic evaluation of the present threat of war and socio-political conflict for the whole human family in this "globalized" world, and the consequent urgent need for human beings to find a way to live in peace together, so that our children and their children may not inherit a world of blood and iron ruined by war and its consequences.

Some analysts are beginning to argue that the threat Benedict opposes is more modern secularism than Islam. That is, Benedict opposes a society with no religious faith at all, no sense of the transcendent, the holy, more even than a society with a very different religious faith and law, if that society still has a profound sense of the holy and the transcendent. (Recall that much of Benedict’s September 12 Regensburg talk was a call to the secularized West to return to a religious faith and a conception of the transcendent that it has abandoned over the past two or three centuries.)

"Benedict opposes secularism because it is both absolute and arbitrary," Philip Blond of St. Martin’s College, Lancaster, England, wrote recently. "Thus does the pope attribute the failure of Europe's common political project to the growing secularization of European culture... Thus Benedict's true purpose in Turkey is that of uniting all the monotheistic faiths against a militant and self-consciously destructive secular culture... Far from being anti-Muslim, the pope views Islam as a key cultural ally against the enlightenment liberalism that for him corrodes the moral core of Western society."

If this is so, it would explain a great deal.

It would explain why Benedict is reaching out to the Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople, but also to all the other Orthodox Churches (and, in a very special way, to the Russian Orthodox, the most numerous of all the Orthodox Churches, even though there are rivalries between Constantinople and Moscow, the "second Rome" and the "third Rome").

And it would explain why he prayed in the mosque, after asking the Islamic world in September to reject violence.

At the end of the visit, the pope presented the mufti with a framed mosaic of doves.

"This picture is a message of brotherhood in the memory of a visit that I will surely never forget," Pope Benedict said.

And so it was that November 30, 2006, the very day Pope Benedict prayed in the morning with Patriarch Bartholomew for Christian unity after one thousand years of division, also was the day when Pope Benedict moved his lips in a private prayer, for an intention known only to himself -- and in so doing overturned the image created of him in the Muslim world during the past few weeks.

From the pope of the "Regensburg insult" (though certainly Benedict intended no insult), Benedict had become the pope of the "Istanbul prayer."

Of such significance may be a few words, even when not spoken aloud. Of such significance may be a prayer, even when it is only for a few seconds.

Moments before entering the Blue Mosque, Pope Benedict had visited the Hagia Sophia Museum, an architectural masterpiece I myself was able to visit the previous morning.

The Hagia Sophia ("Hagia" means "holy" in Greek, and "Sophia" means "wisdom," so "the Church of Holy Wisdom"), was converted to a mosque in the 15th century after the conquest of Constantinople. After the First World War, when the Ottoman Empire fell and Turkey became a secular state, it was turned into a museum, and remains a museum today, with no religious ceremonies whatsoever.

Before leaving, he stopped to write in the museum's guest book.

"In our diversity, we find ourselves before faith in the one God. May God enlighten us and help us find the path of love and peace," he wrote.

And so on St. Andrew’s Feast Day, the pope visited three great religious shrines in the pace of a single day: (1) the Cathedral of St. George, where he was present at the celebration of an Orthodox Christian Mass; (2) the Hagia Sophia, once the greatest cathedral of Christendom, later, and for almost 500 years, one of the leading mosques in the world, but now a museum, where he did not pray at all; and (3) the Blue Mosque, one of the glories of Islam, where his lips moved silently in an unknown prayer.[/quote]

[url="http://www.insidethevatican.com/newsflash/2006/newsflash-nov30-06-3.htm"]http://www.insidethevatican.com/newsflash/...-nov30-06-3.htm[/url]

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1284100' date='May 29 2007, 11:50 PM']I wouldn't doubt that they feel differently, because if they spoke out against Islam they would be beheaded. Much like the priest recently beheaded in Iraq.[/quote] I believe this is a gross exaggeration, as every group of Muslims is quite different in culture, etc. Numerous times Christians have spoken out against Muslims with no violence being inflicted upon them, in Muslim societies.

[quote]Christians living in Islamic societies are second class citizens (if even that).
[/quote]This isn't the case in every Muslim society, as a matter of fact if it wasn't for several particular Muslims during the crusades, Copts would have been annihilated. In Egypt, Copts have gone through periods of being treated unfairly and other periods of peace. Prior to the Muslim Brotherhood coming to Egypt in their attempt to overthrow the government there, Muslims and Christians lived peacefully amongst each other, in harmony. The Muslim brotherhood was funded by the United States, Britan and Saudi Arabia. The United States funded them, because they didn't like the Egyptian gov. at that time, so they funded the Muslim Brotherhood, with hopes of it overthrowing the Egyptian gov but what they didn't know if that, it destroyed the Egyptian secular gov. and the peace that existed between Christians and Muslims. Since then, it's been difficult to find a balance, but the Muslim brotherhood has worked towards abandoning violence and has taken to politics instead of violence. Saudi Arabia wanted the Muslim Brotherhood to overthrow the secular gov. in Egypt because it was afraid that it's ideology would be threatened by it, that women might see the freedoms that Egyptians are given, and work towards getting that for themselves, etc.


[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1284101' date='May 29 2007, 11:54 PM']
Sadly, yes he is.[/quote] So if he's in violation of it, would that mean that he sinned and should go to confession because of it? What would be the situation there? Should Roman Catholics fear that he might liberalize their traditions and open the church up to possible hostilities, problems? Possibly, tempting his fellow brother [his flow] with Islam?

[quote]And as I have said already, it is a new obstacle to ecumenical dialogue with the Eastern Orthodox. [/quote]I definately believe that he should dialog with the Eastern Orthodox [as he also Dialogs with us, Oriental Orthodox] but I don't see meeting with Muslims, working towards peace and unity as something that hinders the uniting of our Churches. Nobody has been more harmed by both the Crusades and the Islamic Conquest then Copts, but His Holiness Pope Shenouda III is working towards peace with a friendly and healthy dialog with Muslims too. Probably not to the extent that Pope Benedict is doing it [he doesn't visit Mosques, pray with Muslims, etc] but he dialogs with the Egyptian Gov., with Muslim Clerics to find peace.

His Holiness Pope Shenouda III, has prevented Copts from traveling to Jerusalem because Muslims thought that we were supporting Isreal over the Palestinians [which we weren't], just for the sake of peace and love. That's a mightly large compromise to make, but for peace it's worth it and the fruits that are put in place, because of it, might be quite rich and fulfilling. I believe this is how His Holiness Pope Benedict also sees his dialogs and I know that His Holiness Pope John Paul II viewed it, as he was very close friends with the former President of Iran, Muhammed Khatami.

[quote]May the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- the only true God -- bless you,
Todd[/quote]

And with you my friend.


[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1284102' date='May 29 2007, 11:55 PM']Reza,

Can a man worship the Father without worshipping the Son?

And

Who is the way, the truth, and the life?[/quote]

That's a very complicated question, one that the human race has been asking for centuries. I can't speak for everyone else, I can only speak for me and what God has shown me. I believe, because of my testimony, that Jesus Christ is the true living God, that none get to the father but through him, that he is the way the truth and the life, but I'm also not going to say that Jews don't praise YHWH. I definately believe that Jews praise YHWH, because that's who their praises are directed towards. I believe that they are no different, then Protestants that don't have the fullness of the truth, and humanity as a whole.

I'm not going to say, and can't say, that Muslims don't worship God, because according to their best efforts, according to what they know [the majority anyways], they are worshipping God. Muslims don't pray five formal prayers for their health [thou it is good physical exercise], they do it because they love God. The problem is that they have a distorted view of him, and how he would like them to worship him. My sister that works at the Morocco Foundation, is serving the least among her [as Jesus has told Christians to do] because she loves God and his creation. That's an undeniable fact. I know a vast amount of Protestants that help feed the homeless along side their Roman Catholic Breathren right here in Tacoma, and I'm not going to say that the Protestants don't serve Jesus Christ, just because their views of him and his Saints are fairly flawed either.


[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1284118' date='May 30 2007, 01:42 AM']If I remember this moment correctly, the Pope was touring the 'Blue Mosque' with Mustafa Cagrici, the grand mufti of Istanbul. The mufti stopped to pray during the tour and while waiting, the Pope possibly took the time to think of God.[/quote]

That might make more sense, I'm slightly skeptical of simply judging His Holiness Pope Benedict [who's numbers I can't remember], based purely upon what has been reported, as there's probably much more to the story, and sometimes we can make a slightly informed "hypothesis" [if you will] but in this case, it would be far from educated.

Maybe this peaceful and progressing dialog continue with fruits,
Reza

[Apotheoun]

Reza,

Christians in the Middle East suffer massive persecution on a daily basis, and that is one of the reasons for the continuing decline in the overall number of Christians living in Islamic countries in that region (and even in Indonesia). The Coptic Church in particular suffers from persecution (and Dhimmi status) in Egypt, and I cannot believe that you are unaware of this fact. That said, you might want to check out the book written by David Sagiv on the rise of Islamic intolerance, entitled [u]Fundamentalism and Intellectuals in Egypt, 1973-1993[/u], because it highlights some of the horrible persecution that has been suffered by Coptic Christians during the past 40 years in Egypt.

Now, I must admit that I am shocked by your attitude, because the history of Islam is filled with the murder and persecution of Christians, and Islamic authorities -- throughout the Islamic world -- have constantly placed restrictions upon the Church's freedom to worship Christ (cf. Steven Runciman, [u]The Great Church in Captivity[/u] and [u]The Fall of Constantinople[/u]). A Christian must always remember that Islam is a false religion, and the fact that you cannot admit that that is the case is sad to say the least. Nevertheless, Muhammad is not a prophet, and the Qu'ran is not a valid revelation of God. That said, I will pray for your enlightenment.

Christ is the sole savior of humanity, for as He said: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by Me." [John 14:6]

May the Holy and Undivided Trinity bless you,
Todd

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1284125' date='May 30 2007, 03:12 AM']Reza,

Christians in the Middle East suffer massive persecution on a daily basis, and that is one of the reasons for the continuing decline in the overall number of Christians living in Islamic countries in that region (and even in Indonesia).[/quote] Oh I'm aware of some suffering that takes place, but as I'd put it previously, it has nothing to do with Islam as a religion, but upon those that interpret it according to their hateful agendas. I know people that do the same in the name of Christianity. Egypt has had peaceful periods with Muslims and violent periods with Muslims.

We definately disagree on that being the cause of the decline of Christians in the middle east. In the situation of Palestine/Isreal, it's not Islam that has caused the decline of Christians, but the oppression that Christians face under the secular state of Isreal. In the situation of Egypt, the decline of Christianity has had to do with the crusades, in which Muslims and Copts together were slaughtered massively, and politics.

[quote]The Coptic Church in particular suffers from persecution (and Dhimmi status) in Egypt, and I cannot believe that you are unaware of this fact.[/quote]I'm more then aware of the persecution that the Church has suffered, I just disagree with you, as to the exact reason of "why" they are persecuted. You blame it strictly upon the religion of Islam, I blame it upon other factors, such as the various political affairs that have gone on through the years.

[quote]Now, I must admit that I am shocked by your attitude, because the history of Islam is filled with the murder and persecution of Christians, and Islamic authorities -- throughout the Islamic world -- have constantly placed restrictions upon the Church's freedom to worship Christ (cf. Steven Runciman, [u]The Great Church in Captivity[/u] and [u]The Fall of Constantinople[/u]).[/quote] The Roman Catholic/Byzintine Crusades have contributed to the rise of Islam in Egypt, so to put blame strictly upon Muslims would be wrong. We definately disagree with the history of Islam, being just a murderous one that persecuted Christians. As I'd pointed out previously, Muslims have also helped the Coptic Church from being annihilated by the Crusaders. Being a former Muslim, someone that was raised by Muslims throughout a significant portion of my life, and someone that's Coptic and studied both sections of history, I definately disagree with you.

[quote]A Christian must always remember that Islam is a false religion, and the fact that you cannot admit that that is the case is sad to say the least. [/quote]I never said that it wasn't a false religion, please quote me on saying that it isn't a false religion, or should I say "attempt", because you won't be able to find such a quote.

[quote]Nevertheless, Muhammad is not a prophet, and the Qu'ran is not a valid revelation of God. That said, I will pray for your enlightenment.[/quote] As I'd mentioned just a second ago, I never said that Muhammed was a prophet and that the Qu'ran was a valid revelation of God, and if you can find a quote of me saying these words, please provide it but again, it doesn't exist. What I did say is that Muslims, to the best of their ability and knowledge, worship God the almighty, they just have a distorted image of the charectoristics that make up "God". Islam began as a Christian Sect, just like Protestantism that evolved into the Islam that we're seeing currently. There is a great amount of elements in Islam, that came from Christianity and Muslims use that to worship God, to the best of their ability.

[quote]Christ is the sole savior of humanity, for as He said: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by Me." [John 14:6][/quote]

And if you go back and re-read my last response, I didn't deny this scripture, as a matter of fact, I specifically endorsed it.

Reza

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='T-Bone' post='1283743' date='May 29 2007, 07:07 PM']How would you all feel about our Holy Father praying in a synagogue?[/quote]

The difference is, the Jews are a Covenant people, and Judaism the root from which Christianity grew. Islam, on the other hand, is man-made religion, and as someone on this board put it, essentially a heresy of Christianity because it denies the divinity of Jesus.

[chelsea]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1284095' date='May 30 2007, 02:21 AM']That's because Christian theology (i.e., the revelation of God in Christ) is the truth, while Islam is a false religion. Muhammad is not a prophet. Moreover, the ancient canons of the Church forbid praying with heretics, infidels, and pagans. That said, a Christian can certainly pray [b]for[/b] a Muslim (i.e., that he be released from the false religion of Muhammad), but there is no way for a Christian to pray [b]with[/b] a Muslim, because all Christian prayer is made to the Father, through the Son, in the power and energy of the Holy Spirit.[/quote]


The Pope wasnt praying WITH a Muslim. He was praying NEXT TO a Muslim. There is totally a difference. I can pray with my youth minister, I can pray with my best friend. But the Islamic faith doesn't believe in the Trinity. I can pray NEXT to my Islamic friend (in church, in a mosque, wherever) and not be praying with her.

The Pope didnt do anything wrong by praying NEXT TO a Muslim. Its all a matter of position.