Kindergartners To Be Taught Homosexuality, Bisexuality, And Transsexu

[jeffpugh]

Amen.

[Pontifite 7 of 10]

God have mercy on us, the sinners.

[Socrates]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1284146' date='May 30 2007, 06:43 AM']Do you have another fundamental line of reasoning? Again I am not disagreeing with the existence of GOD I am more concerned about His methods of judgment. Have you ever witnessed another person on the receiving end of God’s justice?
What I believe is that [b][i]we[/i][/b] are the only ones to make these decisions about [b][i]ourselves[/i][/b]. If you don’t like to murder for one reason or another, don’t do it. You don’t like to steal for one reason or another, don’t do it. Does the thought of rape repulse you, don’t do it. Don’t agree with abortions, don’t put yourself in a position to have one but don’t expect other people to agree with the judgments and decisions that you have outlined for yourself. Such hopes or impractical and unrealistic because everyone is different and everyone is experiencing and existing under different cirumstances that you are.

Just because it is taught positively does not mean that a child will use this knowledge effectively, practically or expectantly when they grow older. Look at the many religions and all the invested knowledge that parents rear children in. As they grow up, children usually stay in their religion, convert or eventually drop religious matters altogether. When it comes to knowledge and understanding there are no guarantees that children will remain with or even remember what they have learned, there is just too much other knowledge and beliefs to understand and accumulate.
If you want to discuss why [b][i]you[/i][/b] believe that stealing and murder is incorrect for [b][i]you[/i][/b] I would be very content and patient to listen and understand the reason why [b][i]you[/i][/b] encourage these beliefs. But if you want to discuss why cmotherofpearl has suddenly developed a killer’s lust and an obsessive compulsion for all my materialistic possessions we could only speculate, which may only conclude with unfair misunderstandings, misrepresenations and misplaced judgment. It would be best if we asked cmotherofpearl ourselves as to the reasons why she desires to kill and steal (though I sincerely suspect that she secretly covets my Fast Food Toy Collection).[/quote]
Evil acts are wrong for everybody.

For all you know, I'm a real nasty thug and personally love the thought of rape, pillage, and murder, and think such activies are absolutely wonderful for me, because, after all, I'm different and existing under different circumstances than you.
By your own words here, you should have absolutely no problem if I decided to steal all your stuff, ravage your woman, burn your house to the ground, kill your dog and your grandmother, then blow your own brains out with a .44 in cold blood.

After all, according to you, any laws against or opposition to such things would be "impractical and unrealistic because everyone is different and everyone is experiencing and existing under different cirumstances that you are." You, know, to each his own.
And maybe we should pass laws requiring teaching such crimes - er, I mean alternative hobbies - to five-year-olds too, while we're at it.

But your position is obvious lunacy, and I don't wish to waste time arguing with such lunacy further.
But

[Socrates]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1284146' date='May 30 2007, 06:43 AM']Do you have another fundamental line of reasoning? Again I am not disagreeing with the existence of GOD I am more concerned about His methods of judgment. Have you ever witnessed another person on the receiving end of God’s justice?
What I believe is that [b][i]we[/i][/b] are the only ones to make these decisions about [b][i]ourselves[/i][/b]. If you don’t like to murder for one reason or another, don’t do it. You don’t like to steal for one reason or another, don’t do it. Does the thought of rape repulse you, don’t do it. Don’t agree with abortions, don’t put yourself in a position to have one but don’t expect other people to agree with the judgments and decisions that you have outlined for yourself. Such hopes or impractical and unrealistic because everyone is different and everyone is experiencing and existing under different cirumstances that you are.

Just because it is taught positively does not mean that a child will use this knowledge effectively, practically or expectantly when they grow older. Look at the many religions and all the invested knowledge that parents rear children in. As they grow up, children usually stay in their religion, convert or eventually drop religious matters altogether. When it comes to knowledge and understanding there are no guarantees that children will remain with or even remember what they have learned, there is just too much other knowledge and beliefs to understand and accumulate.
If you want to discuss why [b][i]you[/i][/b] believe that stealing and murder is incorrect for [b][i]you[/i][/b] I would be very content and patient to listen and understand the reason why [b][i]you[/i][/b] encourage these beliefs. But if you want to discuss why cmotherofpearl has suddenly developed a killer’s lust and an obsessive compulsion for all my materialistic possessions we could only speculate, which may only conclude with unfair misunderstandings, misrepresenations and misplaced judgment. It would be best if we asked cmotherofpearl ourselves as to the reasons why she desires to kill and steal (though I sincerely suspect that she secretly covets my Fast Food Toy Collection).[/quote]
Evil acts are wrong for everybody.

For all you know, I'm a real nasty thug and personally love the thought of rape, pillage, and murder, and think such activities are absolutely wonderful for me, because, after all, I'm different and existing under different circumstances than you.
By your own words here, you should have absolutely no problem if I decided to steal all your stuff, ravage your woman, burn your house to the ground, kill your dog and your grandmother, then blow your own brains out with a .44 in cold blood.

After all, according to you, any laws against or opposition to such things would be "impractical and unrealistic because everyone is different and everyone is experiencing and existing under different cirumstances that you are." You know, to each his own.
And maybe we should pass laws requiring teaching such crimes - er, I mean alternative hobbies - to five-year-olds too, while we're at it.

But your position is obvious lunacy, and I don't wish to waste time arguing with such lunacy further.

Edited May 31, 2007 by Socrates

[ofpheritup]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1284154' date='May 30 2007, 07:12 AM']Depends on a few factors; The intelligence and the ability and understanding of the child (and I have been in the presence of some very sharp 5 year olds), how it is taught and if parents prefer their children learning this.[/quote]

Uh, No.
That information at that age (at my age) is inappropriate.
The point of telling them is so that they do "what" with it?

If the parents prefer their children learn this( and those kinds of parents scare me) let them teach them.

I am a Teacher and I have enough to do without this "dribble" being dragged into the classroom.
I don't care how "sharp" some children are, they don't need to know this.

What ever happened to innocence, purity....... oh nutz I'm just going to say it.
WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO JUST BEING A KID?

[carrdero]

[quote]Socrates writes: Evil acts are wrong for everybody.[/quote]But are they “evil” acts or are they ignorant acts? If every criminal was given the insight to the consequences and future conclusions of their actions, do you think that criminals would proceed to perpetrate such crimes? If they were allowed the full understanding of the lives and situations of their victims and survivors do you think that they would continue with their plans? When criminals perpetrate crimes are they living for the moment or are they considering their future?

[quote]Socrates writes: For all you know, I'm a real nasty thug and personally love the thought of rape, pillage, and murder, and think such activies are absolutely wonderful for me, because, after all, I'm different and existing under different circumstances than you.[/quote]

“For all you know” is the key here. How much do you or I know? One wouldn’t know until one has asked. How much do I know about you? I woudn’t know until I asked or you told me. I am not going to make broad assumptions or misplaced judgments because of your thoughts, race, creed, sex or color. This is prejudice. Even if you have a record or have once served a jail sentence this by no means gives me permission to treat you like a criminal. If it is our first time meeting and all I know about you is your criminal record, I will treat you with the same kindness and respect that I give to everyone until you offer me reasons why I shouldn’t trust you.

[quote]Socrates writes: By your own words here, you should have absolutely no problem if I decided to steal all your stuff, ravage your woman, burn your house to the ground, kill your dog and your grandmother, then blow your own brains out with a .44 in cold blood.[/quote]Where exactly in these posts am I openly inviting Phatmass members, neighbors in my community or the population of United States to bring these actions to my backyard? If you want to steal my stuff, ravage my wife or burn my house to the ground, kill my dog and my grandmother then blow out my brains, the question that I have to ask you is:

What is stopping you?

Why haven’t you done this already? Is the cost of the trip to Upstate NY not worth the amount of weath you could possibly gain from my household? Do you require assistance in this heist (because I don’t think cmotherofpearl is doing anything that weekend)? It is easy to talk and think about these things but what exactly is stopping you from bringing these thoughts to reality? And how am I supposed to feel after someone has completed all of these “evil” actions on me, my family and household? I was raised in the wisdom of forgiveness and to love my enemies and I believe that this is the most accurate, appropriate, response to this situation and you may quote me on this.

[quote]Socrates writes: After all, according to you, any laws against or opposition to such things would be "impractical and unrealistic because everyone is different and everyone is experiencing and existing under different cirumstances that you are." You, know, to each his own.[/quote]

For all I know, you may need the money but you find it very unrealistic or impractical to just ask me (Post #97 and the response in Post #105). Maybe you have a family to support and have been unsuccessful trying to make ends meet in your community. By all means, do you what you want, you will anyway (Post #96). The fact is that there will be legitimate consequences to this example that you propose (Post #48). Are you prepared for them?

[quote]Socrates writes: But your position is obvious lunacy, and I don't wish to waste time arguing with such lunacy further.[/quote]

You are within your right so I don’t think that you will mind me having my final defense.

Edited May 31, 2007 by carrdero

[carrdero]

[quote name='ofpheritup' post='1285037' date='May 31 2007, 04:12 AM']Uh, No.
That information at that age (at my age) is inappropriate.
The point of telling them is so that they do "what" with it?

If the parents prefer their children learn this( and those kinds of parents scare me) let them teach them.

What ever happened to innocence, purity....... oh nutz I'm just going to say it.
WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO JUST BEING A KID?[/quote]

Hiding or protecting kids from knowledge is not a solution. Parents who adore or exploit this pure innocence in children concerns me more because in essence what they are saying is that they do not want their children to grow up, become intelligent or become their own individuals. Children inevitably rebel against this kind of parental behavior. Some parents expect their children to become what they want or to be exactly like them. This may be a valid argument for cloning but is not a reason to have and raise children. We cannot continue to keep children pure and innocent anymore than we can keep dogs or cats puppies and kittens. The world now offers many things that are considered “unnatural” and “guilty” and our children live in this world and must also be prepared for these circumstances. One of the most frequently asked questions a small child can ask besides “can I have a cookie?” is “Why?” and I would rather give my child this answer rather than a lie or skirting the issue.

[quote]Ofpheritup writes: I am a Teacher and I have enough to do without this "dribble" being dragged into the classroom.
I don't care how "sharp" some children are, they don't need to know this.[/quote]

As a teacher (and probably as a parent) you realize that children and parents do not have to participate in this curriculum. Even the parents of children who are Jehovah Witnesses do not permit their children to participate in the Pledge Of Allegience or any parties associated with pagen holidays, so I am sure that if these teaching proceed there shall be provisions for parents who do not wish for their children to know this. I am sure that parents who are homosexual, bi-sexual and trans-sexuals woud not mind this curriculum being offered to their children.

As an outside observer I would not mind children learning knowledge and respect for people of different ages, genders, races or creeds. I think this is a practical teaching for everyone to learn and adhere to. I would be more impressed with the 4 year old who has competently learned manners and respect for other children and adults than a child who could spell certain words and recite the alphabet but was rude.

Edited May 31, 2007 by carrdero

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1282091' date='May 27 2007, 12:52 PM']SB 777 would teach these sexual subjects without parental permission.[/quote]


[quote name='carrdero' post='1285050' date='May 31 2007, 07:02 AM']As a teacher (and probably as a parent) you realize that children and parents do not have to participate in this curriculum.[/quote]

Read it again.

Carrdero, it is possible for children to learn to be kind to others without learning about all the behaviors that humans are capible of. It isn't either or-- sheltered vs. kind to others.

[carrdero]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1285055' date='May 31 2007, 07:24 AM']Read it again.
SB 777 would teach these sexual subjects without parental permission.[/quote]
Permission yes, participation no. You cannot teach children who are absent from the classroom.
[quote]homeschoolmom writes: Carrdero, it is possible for children to learn to be kind to others without learning about all the behaviors that humans are capible of. It isn't either or-- sheltered vs. kind to others.[/quote]
This effective learning process of kindness, tolerance and respect does not originate from biased, ignorant parents who believe that homosexuals, bi-sexuals and trans-sexuals are evil.

Edited May 31, 2007 by carrdero

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1285065' date='May 31 2007, 08:07 AM']Permission yes, participation no. You cannot teach children who are absent from the classroom.[/quote]
So, you are suggesting that this would be a one time discussion that parents would know about in advance and could pull their child out for the day rather than an on-going series of lessons/discussions?

[misereremi]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1285050' date='May 31 2007, 01:02 PM']Hiding or protecting kids from knowledge is not a solution. Parents who adore or exploit this pure innocence in children concerns me more because in essence what they are saying is that they do not want their children to grow up, become intelligent or become their own individuals. Children inevitably rebel against this kind of parental behavior. Some parents expect their children to become what they want or to be exactly like them. This may be a valid argument for cloning but is not a reason to have and raise children. We cannot continue to keep children pure and innocent anymore than we can keep dogs or cats puppies and kittens. The world now offers many things that are considered “unnatural” and “guilty” and our children live in this world and must also be prepared for these circumstances. One of the most frequently asked questions a small child can ask besides “can I have a cookie?” is “Why?” and I would rather give my child this answer rather than a lie or skirting the issue.[/quote]

We're not talking about innocent things like cookies in this thread now, surely. We're talking about 4-5 year olds being fed age-inappropriate and VERY damaging information (to put it very very lightly) about peoples' sexual "preferences" or perversions. As a parent, it is my duty to safegurd my children's innocence and teach them when they are ready in the context of our faith as Catholics.

If you are concerned that children that young will be prejudiced against homosexuals and transexuals unless taught about their sexuality, maybe you don't know much about 4-5 year olds. It's that very same innocence that you would not have us defend that makes young children the most non-judgemental members of our society.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='misereremi' post='1285070' date='May 31 2007, 08:13 AM']If you are concerned that children that young will be prejudiced against homosexuals and transexuals unless taught about their sexuality, maybe you don't know much about 4-5 year olds. It's that very same innocence that you would not have us defend that makes young children the most non-judgemental members of our society.[/quote]

Yeah, I was going to say something along this line, too.

[carrdero]

[quote]Misereremi writes: We're not talking about innocent things like cookies in this thread now, surely. We're talking about 4-5 year olds being fed age-inappropriate and VERY damaging information (to put it very very lightly) about peoples' sexual "preferences" or perversions.[/quote]It doesn’t seem to be inappropriate if a whole state (that was voted into office) feels that this information is necessary to kindergartners. Why are they teaching this to small children? Do we know? What are they going to teach and how are they going to handle this information with children? We don’t know?

[quote]Misereremi writes: As a parent, it is my duty to safegurd my children's innocence and teach them when they are ready in the context of our faith as Catholics.[/quote]
[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1285069' date='May 31 2007, 08:12 AM']So, you are suggesting that this would be a one time discussion that parents would know about in advance and could pull their child out for the day rather than an on-going series of lessons/discussions? [/quote]

And as an established body of democratically appointed officials it is not within their Law or right to accommodate your faith whatever religion that you assign it to. As a citizen you have a right to practice your beliefs but if this belief goes against the laws of this particular county you have serious decisions to make. If you feel that your children’s innocence and faith are that imperative, may I make the bold suggestion of enrolling them in a Catholic school? If you find the conditions of public schools unacceptable there are other avenues to pursue, you just have to search for them.

[quote]Misereremi writes: If you are concerned that children that young will be prejudiced against homosexuals and transexuals unless taught about their sexuality, maybe you don't know much about 4-5 year olds. It's that very same innocence that you would not have us defend that makes young children the most non-judgemental members of our society.[/quote]

And when they grow up what happens? I have endured the segregation and teasing that children promote from grades 1-12 and I have witnessed in my lifetime the same torment and torture that prompted the Columbine High School and Virginia Tech incidents all because people were different. Nothing much has changed since I went to school and prejudice is being bred and nurtured somewhere and I am mostly concerned about children being misinformed and becoming ignorant of these differences.

Edited May 31, 2007 by carrdero

[SJP]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1285065' date='May 31 2007, 09:07 AM']Permission yes, participation no. You cannot teach children who are absent from the classroom.

This effective learning process of kindness, tolerance and respect does not originate from biased, ignorant parents who believe that homosexuals, bi-sexuals and trans-sexuals are evil.[/quote]

That sounds like judgment to me carrdero.

[SJP]

[quote]carrdero writes: It doesn’t seem to be inappropriate if a whole state (that was voted into office) feels that this information is necessary to kindergartners.[/quote]

So does democracy make something right? Does the fact that a group of people have decided to do something make it good and right?