Katholikos Posted June 16, 2007 Author Share Posted June 16, 2007 Budge, here's a lesson in reading comprehension: The exact words of the entire [color="#FF0000"][b]First[/b][/color] Commandment are given in full in my first post in this thread. The [color="#FF0000"][b]First[/b][/color] Commandment says, in part, "[u]Thou shalt have no other gods before me[/u]. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; thou shalt not bow down unto them or serve them... ." So, are the cherubim in heaven above? [color="#FF0000"][b]Yes.[/b][/color] Did God instruct the Israelites to make a likeness of cherubim on the Arc of the Covenent? [color="#FF0000"][b]Yes.[/b][/color] Therefore, is the correct interpretation of the [color="#FF0000"][b]First[/b][/color] Commandment, "Thou shalt not [color="#FF0000"][b][i]make[/i][/b][/color] . . .any manner of likeness of anything that is in heaven above"... ? [color="#FF0000"][b]No.[/b][/color] Did God forbid [b][color="#FF0000"][i]worship[/i][/color][/b] of any 'thing' or any 'one' other than the One True God in the[color="#FF0000"][b] First[/b][/color] Commandment? [color="#FF0000"][b]Yes. [/b][/color] Is making images and likenesses a sin against the First Commandment? [color="#FF0000"][b] No.[/b][/color] So your interpretation is contrary to the Commandments God gave to us through Moses. Did He forbid the Israelites to make an image of the angels in heaven and then order them to break the Commandment by putting cherubim on the Arc of the Covenant and other images in the Temple? [b]No. [/b] Did He order Moses not to make any image of anything on the earth and then order him to break the Commandment by making an image of a serpent? [b]No[/b]. Moses didn't think so. The Jews didn't think so. The original Christians didn't think so. The descendants of the original Christians (that's us Catholics) don't think so either. You change the numbering of the Commandments and misinterpret their meaning. It's you against Moses, Budge. Which of you is correct? I'm betting on Moses. C'mon, admit it and change your sig. Likos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirisutodo333 Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 [quote name='Budge' post='1296540' date='Jun 16 2007, 10:50 AM']Im back today... Anyhow do any of you know the names of those cherebum? Never saw anyone kneel before them adn worshipping them or calling them by name.[/quote] Budge unfortunately has been imprisoned in that very narrow-minded, protestant or anti-catholic view of "Catholics worship Icons" mentality. Even after you explain it to them in detail, it just goes in one ear and then out the other. Typicial conversation: Budge-like anti-Catholic person: You worship the saints and their images. Catholic: No we pray to our saints to intercede for us, to pray for us. Kind of like asking our friends here on earth to pray for us. Budge-like anti-Catholic person: So, then why do you worship the saints and their images? Catholic: Oh, brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 WHY? Why does this happen? What is the reasoning behind this stupidity! Budge! [b]I[/b] am now questioning you. Why do you not listen to us and what are you trying to accomplish by being so bloody blatant to our perpetual explanation to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starets Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 [quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1297049' date='Jun 16 2007, 11:11 PM']WHY? Why does this happen? What is the reasoning behind this stupidity! Budge! [b]I[/b] am now questioning you. Why do you not listen to us and what are you trying to accomplish by being so bloody blatant to our perpetual explanation to you?[/quote] Because we are potential notches on her spirtitual belt and nothing more. She is in possession of the trvth and is not interested in listening to our explanations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 (edited) Is that all? It sounds lame to me. I listen to what my atheist friend has to say and try and work off his reasoning. It just helps to know EXACTLY where he's coming from. Not where I THINK he's coming from. Edited June 17, 2007 by Sacred Music Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starets Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 I think so, based on my observations. And yes it IS lame But when you are in full possession of the trvth, you dont need to listen to the other person as you already know what they believe. This is the pride that leads to destruction, and the boastful spirit that precedes the fall. It certainly is not the humility to which we as Christians are called. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatherG Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 I can only agree with the above post. Well stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jswranch Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 [quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1297049' date='Jun 16 2007, 09:11 PM']WHY? Why does this happen? What is the reasoning behind this stupidity! Budge! [b]I[/b] am now questioning you. Why do you not listen to us and what are you trying to accomplish by being so bloody blatant to our perpetual explanation to you?[/quote] Satan causes one's eyes to be closed so they cannot see the truth. Satan causes one's ears to be closed so they cannot hear the truth. Satan hardens one's heart because they cling to anger, self-righteousness, love of self and unforgiveness rather than dying to self. Satan confuses one so they cannot come to the truth. This is the answer to your question of why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 good points. and if it's okay to make statues, and not misconstrue what's stated in the commandemnts, then it might be okay to bow and it's not misconstruing if it's not worshipping. thought... i think you could argue that graven images are those that are meant to be bowed in front of. if that's the case, then it's okay to have statues etc as long as you don't bow in front, regardless of even if you don't worship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 I dunno. What if the bowing is an act of respect for what the image represents? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 i agree that i don't think it's wrong to bow for respect only. but it's not completely far fetched to think you shouldn't at all. and with that thought in my last post, then it's not necessarily against Budge as you've all thought. i simply doubt she has the abilty to critically defend herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akalyte Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 [quote name='Kirisutodo333' post='1296811' date='Jun 16 2007, 03:52 PM']Budge unfortunately has been imprisoned in that very narrow-minded, protestant or anti-catholic view of "Catholics worship Icons" mentality. Even after you explain it to them in detail, it just goes in one ear and then out the other. Typicial conversation: Budge-like anti-Catholic person: You worship the saints and their images. Catholic: No we pray to our saints to intercede for us, to pray for us. Kind of like asking our friends here on earth to pray for us. Budge-like anti-Catholic person: So, then why do you worship the saints and their images? Catholic: Oh, brother.[/quote] and I have seen that over and over! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 ha, funny cause it's true. including the budge like person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 as an aside, I find it funny that we labeled that kind of person a Budge... and then come the many puns... I won't budge on that one though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jswranch Posted June 27, 2007 Share Posted June 27, 2007 [quote name='Budge' post='1296540' date='Jun 16 2007, 08:50 AM']Im back today... [/quote] Have you ever bowed/kneeled in prayer with your bible infront of you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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