Burning Building Scenario

[jckinsman]

Dairygirl,You have a strange faSINation with this topic.Could it be personal? STM Cut it out, with the whole baptisim thing! Don't patronize a Holy Sacrament with sarcastic dialogue.JC

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1281106' date='May 25 2007, 01:45 AM']Yeah... according to the catechisms and theology books I've read... you can only get a baptism of desire for yourself...[/quote]
Then your only choices are: perform some sort of baptism on near invisible humans and, in doing so, kill them OR entrust them to a loving and merciful God.

[Aloysius]

morally, you cannot kill someone in order to baptize them, even if they would have died anyway.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1281146' date='May 25 2007, 08:23 AM']morally, you cannot kill someone in order to baptize them, even if they would have died anyway.[/quote]
Well, that was sort of my whole point.

[Ragamuffin]

Going with the absurd scenario for a moment, I have to admit, I'd save the young girl first, then make every attempt to get back inside and save the crate. For one, if the girl dies in the fire, I know she can feel the sensation of pain and of fear and the cells in the crate, human as they are, cannot. So by saving her first, I'm not only saving a life, but preventing suffering. Plus, if I had to hear the screams of that little girl while I was rushing out with a crate of zygotes, I'd have nightmares the rest of my life.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1281144' date='May 25 2007, 07:16 AM']Then your only choices are: perform some sort of baptism on near invisible humans and, in doing so, kill them OR entrust them to a loving and merciful God.[/quote]

I guess I'd just let them go to Limbus Puerorum.

Edited May 25, 2007 by StThomasMore

[jckinsman]

Okay so..........heres another scenario
You have a broken arm and a broken toe. You decided that morning to wear flame retardent clothing to work. When you saw flames in your building you spring into action. You work at a Law Firm but it just so happened tp bring your kid to work day. A woman and a man run down the stairs screaming that both of their children are trapped,surrounded by flames. One childs name is, bob the other, zygote, you can only rescue one in time before the building falls in on itself. They are both baptized. Which child do you choose? JC

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1281294' date='May 25 2007, 01:35 PM']I guess I'd just let them go to Limbus Puerorum.[/quote]

But back to post 28, what if the parents of those children fully intended and fully desired to baptize their children? Meaning absolutely the children would have been baptized, but they die, would the children in go to Limbus Puerorum? Or would they have baptism of desire and go to Paradise? If they would not have baptism of desire why not? If the parents of a child can desire their child to be baptized and have it done, being a true and most holy baptism, why does this same desire not count if the same child dies before the baptism can be preformed?

Edited May 26, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[jckinsman]

This is nuts! If a child,who is not baptized,born in the jungle,parents never knew God. The stain of mans original sin still IS THERE is it not? Okay, Do you really think that a baby born without baptism is going to fry in purgatory for years,or might it be Less then a worldly second! Is this tiny soul going to even know what happened? Our God is bigger then our small minds. Nothing unclean will enter heaven! Period! Just because something happened to this soul that barely lived, does not make him any more innocent of man's original sin! JC

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1281535' date='May 26 2007, 03:16 AM']But back to post 28, what if the parents of those children fully intended and fully desired to baptize their children? Meaning absolutely the children would have been baptized, but they die, would the children in go to Limbus Puerorum? Or would they have baptism of desire and go to Paradise? If they would not have baptism of desire why not? If the parents of a child can desire their child to be baptized and have it done, being a true and most holy baptism, why does this same desire not count if the same child dies before the baptism can be preformed?[/quote]

Baptism of desire can only be gained by someone with use of reason from himself:

[quote][b]The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X:[/b]
17 Q: Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?

A: The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by [b]an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism[/b], and [b]this is called Baptism of Desire.[/b]
[url="http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/pius/psacr-b.htm"]http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/mast...ius/psacr-b.htm[/url][/quote]

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='jckinsman' post='1282031' date='May 27 2007, 04:32 AM']This is nuts! If a child,who is not baptized,born in the jungle,parents never knew God. The stain of mans original sin still IS THERE is it not? Okay, Do you really think that a baby born without baptism is going to fry in purgatory for years,or might it be Less then a worldly second! Is this tiny soul going to even know what happened? Our God is bigger then our small minds. Nothing unclean will enter heaven! Period! Just because something happened to this soul that barely lived, does not make him any more innocent of man's original sin! JC[/quote]


I'm not talking about any of that. I am speaking of Children born into Catholic families, who's Parents fully desire their children to be baptized. But the child dies before baptism. We know from Church teaching two things on this matter, that one, in infant baptism the desire Parents count, the Parents reason and desire "stand in" for the child, it matters, and it is most important. The other thing is that if one desires to be baptized but dies before hand that person has "baptism of desire."

The Church teaches that the baptism of a infant, and the baptism of an Adult convert are the same, both true and holy, but in one the indivdial uses his/her own reason and desire to be baptized the other his/her parents. There is no difference is both types of baptisms are completed, why is it different if both the adult convert, and child die? The reason and desire of the parent become less important, less reasonable, less desirable?

If the parents reason and desire do not count if the child dies, this would seem to make their reason and desire less worthy than that of a Adult convert. And if that is the case does that not chase a shadow on the reason and desire of the parents in normal infant baptism? If not why not.

A parent or mother can not have an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this can not be called Baptism of Desire of their child?

While attempts have been made the question has not been answered. Why does the desire of the parents count when the baptism of a child is completed fully, but that same desire does not count if the child dies (seconds even) before the baptism has begun.

Moved this debate [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=68645&st=0#entry1282496"]here[/url].

Edited May 28, 2007 by KnightofChrist