American Muslims

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1280012' date='May 23 2007, 05:14 PM']It's very ignorant to say that this "poll" was accurate, given the truth regarding the information.[/quote]What in the world is "the truth regarding the information"? Could you be any more nondescript? The only "truth" is that you don't like the survey results.

As far as accuracy goes, the survey provides figures for sampling error, as well as details of the survey methodology. It is "very ignorant" for you to judge the validity of their survey methods if you haven't even read the report.

At the point that you actually read the report, I'd be interested in the specific techniques that you reject. Giving us your personal opinions (e.g. "I don't like the report") won't convince anyone with a brain between their ears.

[Mateo el Feo]

BTW, Muslims around the world were given the question, "Can Suicide Bombing of Civilian Targets to Defend Islam be Justified?" (see my post above for the complete question). Below, I've listed the aggregate percentages (from page 53 of the report) of those who answer that it can be justified (1) rarely, (2) sometimes, or (3) often.

Muslims in...
USA = 13% (the lowest rate)
France = 35%
Spain = 25%
Great Britain = 24%
Germany = 13%
Nigeria = 69% (the highest rate)
Jordan = 57%
Egypt = 53%
Turkey = 26%
Pakistan = 22%
Indonesia = 28%

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]I read through her commentary, as well as the "muslimmatters" commentary that she linked to. I was unable to find any "excellent" points. There was one point in which she complained about nominal Muslims being included, but I suspect that their exclusion would only result in an increase in the percentage of support for suicide bombers.[/quote]

To say that is to miss the point of what she was writing. When she spoke about 'nominal Muslims', she wasn't just meaning people who take the label Muslim but don't practice their faith, but people who see Islam as being a cultural and ethnic identifier rather than just a religious system. When I was living in Taif I knew several young Muslims who rarely if ever participated in formal prayers, turned up at the mosque for festival nights only, and had a lot of questionable posters tacked up inside their lockers. Yet they were some of the most vocal supporters of extremism I've ever had the worrying misfortune of meeting. For them, the word 'Muslim' denoted membership in some kind of exclusive club. Their extremist ideology didn't stem from religious conviction so much as a blinkered and dogged belief that they had to support other members of Club Islam at any cost, no matter what the said members might be advocating. When the atrocities were taking place in Chechnya they refused to so much as consider the Russian side of the story. As far as they were concerned, the fact that the Chechyan rebels were Muslims meant that they had to be right. The idea that terrorism and devout religious practice naturally tesselate is false, which is why Muslims themselves usually prefer to make a distinction between Islamic extremists and Islamic fundamentalists - a distinction that a lot of people don't perceive. I am on extremely good terms with two Muslim fundamentalists myself, a husband and wife. They're painfully fastidious about all sorts of little things (the 'Islamic' way of cleaning your teeth correctly, for example) but both of them are very gentle people. Their fundamentalist approach to religious practice does not mean that they support in terrorism in the slightest.

Another good point that Umm Zaid raised was the different ethnic groups of the survey's participants. The level of support for suicide bombings is very likely to be affected by their countries of origin (in the case of immigrants) or their family's connections. If you polled a swathe of Muslims with a connection to Palestine, for example, support for suicide bombings would in all probability rise. I've travelled in Palestine, I've seen what's happened to those people, I know just how many villages have been razed to the ground illegally and how many people left homeless. If this is the stuff your bedtime stories are made of, you are much more likely to grow up thinking that suicide bombing is justified than you are if your family's roots are in the Maldives. Umm Zaid (a convert) was right to think about the impact of origin on people's responses. She has tried to unravel the survey's results to look at the different factors involved, which is a sensible thing. This is not something that most people will do when they read the 13% figure in their newspapers over breakfast.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1280037' date='May 23 2007, 02:43 PM']What in the world is "the truth regarding the information"? Could you be any more nondescript? The only "truth" is that you don't like the survey results.[/quote] No the only truth is that if this was a Catholic report suggesting something negative about your religious beliefs, you've question the methods to which it was taken, being that you're not concerned with Muslims being false labeled, as you just don't care, you support such a poll towards your negative view of Muslims. I was very specific in quoting several elements from the article that Saraji had written, in response to the pew report. You're simply "offended" because you fully embraced this "statistic" among your other prejudice and inaccurate reports before doing the proper research to know their crediblility [which is pretty much not credible].

[quote]As far as accuracy goes, the survey provides figures for sampling error, as well as details of the survey methodology. It is "very ignorant" for you to judge the validity of their survey methods if you haven't even read the report.[/quote] You were the one that "embraced it" before you even found out how the information was collected, where the information came from, etc. I was the individual say that we should find out the proper information before jumping to conclusions, as you have done. If you don't like the fact that the report is highly inaccurate, that's your ego problem, but don't get all tweaked over the fact that it is inaccurate and misrepresenting.

Reza

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1280097' date='May 23 2007, 04:34 PM']Another good point that Umm Zaid raised was the different ethnic groups of the survey's participants. The level of support for suicide bombings is very likely to be affected by their countries of origin (in the case of immigrants) or their family's connections. If you polled a swathe of Muslims with a connection to Palestine, for example, support for suicide bombings would in all probability rise. I've travelled in Palestine, I've seen what's happened to those people, I know just how many villages have been razed to the ground illegally and how many people left homeless. If this is the stuff your bedtime stories are made of, you are much more likely to grow up thinking that suicide bombing is justified than you are if your family's roots are in the Maldives.[/quote]

This was a detail that was mentioned in my initial post, if you interview people from a particular geographical area it's going to be quite different from the next, as the culture is quite different. I know most people that support this poll [among others], don't like to admit that reality but it's a fact. If you take polls, and gather all of your information from one particular source, it's going to be very bias.

Reza

[Socrates]

I've attended lectures by some Catholic men who are well-regarded experts on Islam, have lived among Muslims, and are well-versed in the Q'ran, who regard radicalized Islam as a threat to be taken seriously, [url="http://www.christendom.edu/news/releases.shtml#gruber"]Fr. Mark Gruber[/url], a Benedictine Priest and scholar who has lived and studied in Egypt and other Muslim countries, and [url="http://www.christendom.edu/news/archives/archives06/nnorom.shtml"]Fr. Nnorom[/url], a priest and scholar from Nigeria.

Said Fr. Gruber:[quote]"The mainstream media likes to paint a picture that Islam is peaceful and that it is just extremists who hold this point of view," he continued. "But that simply is not true. While I was working on my Doctoral Dissertation, I spent a year in Egypt and other Muslim countries. During that time I got to see first-hand what the Muslim children were learning. And it was pretty enlightening! Parents would teach their children songs about killing the infidel - songs about death and destruction. Cars, with loud speakers attached, would drive through the streets repeating the message, 'Let their woman be raped, their men be killed, and their children enslaved.'

"To be able to accurately judge a religion, we have to pay attention most importantly to what it teaches its children, not to what it says to the outside world," Gruber said. "No progress will be made unless we speak to each other with self-respect and honesty. There is hope for peace, but we must face the facts and use common sense."[/quote]

Fr. Nnorom told how Islamic hardliners from Saudi Arabia were spending much money and effort to "radicalize" Islam worldwide.
This squares with what the polls show about the younger generation of American Muslims being more likely to support Islamic violence than their elders.
Most American Muslims are of the "moderate" variety, but the situation is much more serious in other parts of the world, and even in America, Islam is becoming more "radical" rather than less.

And let's not delude ourselves; historically Islam was born and grew by violence, and has been one of Christendom's most serious enemies.
This is not to condemn all followers of Islam, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking the false Islamic religion (intended to replace Christianity) is some benign thing.

Edited May 24, 2007 by Socrates

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1279665' date='May 23 2007, 02:58 AM']these stats should really be analyzed through the lens of pre-medina and post-medina- the two phases of the spread of Islam.[/quote]

Okay, first of all, I've never heard of these phases before. Am I the only one like this? I will have to read more of the previous posts tomorrow... Also, I have to say I've thought about the role of Muslims in our world today and need to say that they aren't all bad. I don't know if they really have interior motives other than to spread what they think is "the truth". How they do it is the question. Anywho, I don't think you can directly link Islam and their preference on suicide bombing. Some people just have an aggressive disposition. I'll have to read everything on the first page some time though. I want to know your opinions when I have time...

[mortify]

[quote]By David Morgan
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - About one-quarter of young American Muslims believe to some extent that suicide bombings can be justified to defend Islam, while nearly 80 percent of all U.S. Muslims reject such attacks, a survey showed on Tuesday.[/quote]

Not surprising, unfortunately.

What's scary is that the percentage of young Muslims that support suicide bombing is only in reference to that particular form of warfare. There are Muslim who are totally opposed to suicide bombing *yet* are fully supportive of offensive Jihad. A more prudent question would have been whether they believe offensive Jihad to be a legitimate form of spreading Islamic sovereignty in the modern world.

As Muslim friend candidly told me, [i]"There are many ways of spreading religion, Jihad is only one of them"[/i]