American Muslims

[catholicinsd]

[quote]Poll finds some U.S. Muslim support for suicide attacks

By David Morgan
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - About one-quarter of young American Muslims believe to some extent that suicide bombings can be justified to defend Islam, while nearly 80 percent of all U.S. Muslims reject such attacks, a survey showed on Tuesday.

The nationwide poll of 1,050 Muslim adults by the Pew Research Center said the U.S. Muslim community is largely moderate, assimilated and happy.

But the community also contains pockets of support for Islamist militancy among Muslims aged 18-30 and black Muslims, the survey showed.

The survey, billed as one of the most far-reaching polls of Muslims living in the United States, asked the following question about suicide attacks:

"Some people think that suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets are justified in order to defend Islam from its enemies. Other people believe that, no matter what the reason, this kind of violence is never justified.

"Do you personally feel that this kind of violence is often justified to defend Islam, sometimes justified, rarely justified or never justified?"

The survey found 26 percent of younger Muslims believed suicide bombings are often, sometimes or rarely justified, compared with 69 percent who believed such attacks can never be accepted.

By contrast, 13 percent of all U.S. Muslims felt suicide attacks could be justified often, sometimes or rarely, while 78 percent completely rejected the deadly tactic that has been used by al Qaeda and other Islamist militants.

The poll, conducted from Jan. 24 to April 30 in four languages, had a 5 percent margin of error.

"It's not something they see themselves engaging in. It's more of them seeing what's happening abroad and ... feeling that in these situations, suicide bombings are justified for others," said Farid Senzai of the Institute for Social Policy and Understanding, a Michigan-based research group that studies U.S. domestic and foreign policy.

Senzai attended the news conference as a member of the Pew survey project's outside advisory board.

Experts said the level of Muslim youth support for suicide bombings was similar to patterns seen in Europe.

Support in some degree for suicide bombings among younger European Muslims ranged from 22 percent in Germany to 29 percent in Spain, 35 percent in Britain and 42 percent in France, according to a May 2006 Pew poll.

Pew estimates that there are 2.35 million Muslims living in the United States, a tiny fraction of an overall U.S. population of 300 million people. But Muslim population estimates vary widely, ranging as high as 7 million, because the U.S. Census Bureau does not ask about religious affiliations in its national surveys.

Pollsters said they were surprised to find that only 40 percent of U.S. Muslims believed Arabs carried out the Sept. 11 attacks on New York and Washington.

The survey suggested 53 percent of Muslims believe their life has become more difficult since the 2001 attacks because of discrimination or government surveillance.

But the findings also showed that 78 percent of U.S. Muslims are either "pretty happy" or "very happy" with their lives.[/quote]

[Guest T-Bone]

Why are you vilifying Muslims?

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='T-Bone' post='1279627' date='May 22 2007, 10:35 PM']Why are you vilifying Muslims?[/quote]

No doubt, not only are those "statistics' very speculative, but they blend religions conflicts with political ones. The Palestinian/Isreal issue for example, is a political one.

Reza

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1279633' date='May 23 2007, 01:49 AM']No doubt, not only are those "statistics' very speculative, but they blend religions conflicts with political ones. The Palestinian/Isreal issue for example, is a political one.

Reza[/quote]Maybe you didn't see the sarcasm?

In any event, the statistics are not speculative: they are based on a survey of 1050 American Muslims done by Pew Research. 13 percent (approx. 135) answered that they supported suicide bombings at some level (often/sometimes/rarely). Here's the question:[quote]Some people think that suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets are justified in order to defend Islam from its enemies. Other people believe that, no matter what the reason, this kind of violence is never justified. Do you personally feel that this kind of violence is often justified to defend Islam, sometimes justified, rarely justified, or never justified?[/quote]
For some real fun, look at the results for the rest of the world. Muslims in Europe are twice as likely to support suicide bombing. In a few parts of the Islamic world, the majority supports suicide bombers. The peak is Nigeria, with 69 percent support.

For those interested in the actual report, here it is: [url="http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf"]http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf[/url]

[Aloysius]

of course, there is the pre-medina and post-medina phase of Islam. Whilst it could, to some extent, be mixing religion with political issues (personally, I agree with the palestinians on the Israel issue, we had no right to create Israel there); there is another extent to which it may indicate an advance in muslim attitudes towards the post-medina mindset.

pre-medina refers to the period prior to Mohammad going to Medina, when he was in Mecca just trying to peacefully convert them.
post-medina refers to what he did after he was exiled and went to Medina; he formed an army and conquered Mecca in the name of God.

I don't know though... I think American Muslims will continue in the pre-Medina mindset because they are protected here and are succeeding at growing. We're all just dhimmies as far as they can tell, we're just ripe and willing to submit.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1279658' date='May 23 2007, 02:48 AM']Maybe you didn't see the sarcasm?

In any event, the statistics are not speculative: they are based on a survey of 1050 American Muslims done by Pew Research. 13 percent (approx. 135) answered that they supported suicide bombings at some level (often/sometimes/rarely). Here's the question:
For some real fun, look at the results for the rest of the world. Muslims in Europe are twice as likely to support suicide bombing. In a few parts of the Islamic world, the majority supports suicide bombers. The peak is Nigeria, with 69 percent support.

For those interested in the actual report, here it is: [url="http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf"]http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf[/url][/quote]
these stats should really be analyzed through the lens of pre-medina and post-medina- the two phases of the spread of Islam.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1279665' date='May 23 2007, 02:58 AM']these stats should really be analyzed through the lens of pre-medina and post-medina- the two phases of the spread of Islam.[/quote]What do you mean by pre- and post-medina in the context of American Muslims?

[Aloysius]

It seems to me American Muslims are more in the pre-Medina phase. I'm just saying, the more you get into the ones who would answer in agreement with suicide bombing, the more it's indicative of a region in which Islam has undergone the post-medina phase.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1279658' date='May 22 2007, 11:48 PM']Maybe you didn't see the sarcasm?[/quote]

Nope

[quote]In any event, the statistics are not speculative: they are based on a survey of 1050 American Muslims done by Pew Research. 13 percent (approx. 135) answered that they supported suicide bombings at some level (often/sometimes/rarely). [/quote]They are speculative, based upon the fact that we didn't get to talk to these people directly, we don't what region it was specifically marketed towards, etc. I'd participated in polls before, where the question could apply to political and religious context, and people answered it as such. IE: I'd once read a poll like this before that asked, "are suicide bombings justified to protect Muslims or Islam" and people voted "yes" based upon the oppression of their palestinian brothers and sisters but if you examined it further, you'd see that the individuals that voted "yes" were doing so in light of the Palestinian Isreali conflict.

Even those individuals that voted, "yes" in this particular poll, could have had the Palestinian/Isreali and US War in Iraq on their mind and voted in that context, in their hearts, despite the context of the poll. Being that we can't interview each individual one at a time, it's impossible to find out the "exact" truth to it. These polls surface several times a year, and everyone of them gives different statistics, doesn't mean that they are accurate, for if everyone of them were accurate then they wouldn't contradict each other.

I'd once asked my sister that was born and raised in Iran, "what do you think of suicide bombing" and she said that we doesn't have an opinion, but that those individuals that partake in that particular "act", are doing so out of dedication to their country and religious beliefs, and that is their choice. Now if an "opinion poll" was taken of her, it would say "she agrees with suicide bombings" but that is far from the truth.

[quote]Here's the question:
For some real fun, look at the results for the rest of the world. Muslims in Europe are twice as likely to support suicide bombing. In a few parts of the Islamic world, the majority supports suicide bombers. The peak is Nigeria, with 69 percent support.[/quote] I would definately disagree with this "opinion poll". Having spoken to Muslims throughout the middle east, having relatives from the middle east [including friends that are from Nigeria], I definately would disagree with this opinion poll. As I'd pointed out above, often times these people vote "yes", as in the instance to where they don't want to judge others, that the cause in which they are fighting [in the case of Palestinians, it's the Isreali illegal occupation], but in the light that they personally wouldn't partake in it.

It's like asking liberal Roman Catholics that don't believe in taking a stand against homosexuality [I know alot in my area that were angry at Pope Benedict for his speeches against homosexuality in the priesthood], "do you believe the Pope is wrong for outcasting homosexual priests" and the opinion poll saying, "yes". Its taken in a bias location, amongst a bias group of people, etc.

Reza

Edited May 23, 2007 by RezaLemmyng

[Mateo el Feo]

Reza, your grasping at objections amounts to a disapproval of the results--you don't like the fact that 13% of American Muslims surveyed approve of suicide bomber attacks against civilian targets. Frankly, I don't like this fact either. Sadly, a multi-country survey shows wide support for suicide bombings among Muslims. The support in the US by American Muslims (far from being an anomaly or a biased group) are actually the [u]lowest[/u] rates of support among all the countries.

I quoted the question asked above, and it asked whether suicide bombings could ever be "justified in order to defend Islam from its enemies". Your sister (is she your biological sister?) and your Nigerian friends would be considered anecdotal evidence. Considering your claim of bias against Pew Research and its survey methods, I don't quite understand how you think a handful of people should be considered as unbiased or random group, representative of Muslims as a whole.

Your main attack seems to be fueled by your prejudices against surveys in general, not to mention your disagreeing with the results (I find that funny). In the hopes that you would actually get specific about why you question this survey in particular, I've included the direct link to the survey report, which contains extensive documentation on their methodology.

Edited May 23, 2007 by Mateo el Feo

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]I don't know though... I think American Muslims will continue in the pre-Medina mindset because they are protected here and are succeeding at growing. We're all just dhimmies as far as they can tell, we're just ripe and willing to submit.[/quote]

That suggests that there is a distinctive 'us' and 'them', with 'them' judging 'us' to be ripe for the conquering. What qualifications does an American Muslim have to hold to become one of 'us'? As fdr this 'succeeding at growing' business...that reminds me of the people who make ridiculous claims about the Vatican forbidding birth control to ensure a high number of good little Catholics. Perhaps the majority of American Muslims are happy to live by US law simply because they are as American as your average citizen, not because they have ulterior motives.

This is the eighth or ninth thread on Islam and Muslims that I have seen since I came to Phatmass. There seems to be an unnecessary and unhealthy fixation on the subject, especially as none of these threads have led to much real dialogue so far. But I have begun to suspect that real dialogue is not what people want anyway. For this reason, I am just going to ignore all Phatmass 'Muslim' threads from now on.

[Aloysius]

All threads I've talked about Islam on before had real discussion, and I valued your input while exploring different perspectives on it

As to the "growth" statement; I do believe Islam is considered to be the fastest growing major world religion; I was not making reference to their procreation but their conversion rates.

Otherwise, I'm not talking about a national us-vs-them; but a religions us-vs-them which will always exhsit. in that sense, to answer your question, the only way for them to become "one of us" is to become Catholic. but for them to be "American"... well, most of them already are, they're the pre-medina evangelical arm of Islam in America, fully and truly Americans who love this country (most of them at least) and have mostly the same range in the political spectrum as us.

There is a historical two-pronged approach that Muslims take in spreading Islam which I, following the insights of others, have identified with the "pre-medina" and "post-medina" phases of Mohammad's life. Do you dispute that this exists in Islam?

It is also my understanding that the term "dhimmie" refers to someone who is basically ready to submit to Islam, they just need to be given the chance. When we show religious weakness in the west with secularism, it makes it clear that that's what we are, dhimmies.

In any event, I'm not sure I see this unnatural obsession you're talking about. Islam is a huge issue to Catholicism; the one religion that was strong enough to dessimate our strong hold on the middle east and north africa and never be converted. It's the #1 threat to the Church... and because of schisms it even has more members than the Church. why wouldn't it be talked about often? In order of importance to the Church's evangelical mission, there are basically three subjects tied for most important: the eastern orthodox, the protestants, and the muslims.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]All threads I've talked about Islam on before had real discussion, and I valued your input while exploring different perspectives on it[/quote]

I wasn't referring to your contributions specifically, but to the substance and tone of the discussion in general. All but one of the threads have focused on [i]jihad[/i], Muslim methods of [i]daw'a[/i] (evangelism), and everybody's favourite, perceived Muslim support for terrorism. The result is a two-dimensional and dangerously inaccurate picture of Islam. Just as the secular media makes it seem as if Catholicism doesn't have anything to talk about apart from sexual issues, all the PM discussions on Islam make it seem as if these things form the core of a Muslim's faith. And they don't.

I agree that a Catholic needs to be sensitive to the fact that many disillusioned people are turning to Islam for spiritual solace rather than to the Church. It is the fastest-growing world religion without a doubt. But rather than seriously asking why this might be, people instantly start talking about deceptive Muslim evangelism techniques, revisionist history, and conversion by force. (The President of Iran might be drafted in to make a guest appearance for good measure.) Instead of building up our own twisted perception of what Islam is and judging accordingly, I think we should learn to see Islam as the Muslims see it - and then ask questions rather than trying to hand out answers.

Regarding the high conversion rate, my questions are these:

1.) Muslims pray five times each day and base their whole routine on prayer, as opposed to the numerous Catholics who just turn up to Mass once a week. Could it be that converts to Islam are responding to this regular remembrance of God? If so, shouldn't we be teaching the beauty of the Divine Office and trying to introduce this traditional prayer of the Church into the lives of lay Catholics? I didn't know what a breviary was before I got to university. I knew very little about traditional Christian prayer...and I suspect that the same is true of all those souls that are gravitating towards a religion where prayer enjoys such great prominence.

2.) In a culture where the body (particularly the female body) is used to market everything from car tyres to deodorant, eating disorders are on the rise as young people anxiously run after an unattainable standard of physical beauty, and celebrity magazines gleefully print snapshots of unfortunate film stars who happen to have gained a whole four pounds, could it be that prospective converts to Islam are moved by the respect that Islam affords to the body? The belief that it is your private property, not to be judged and scrutinised by other people, respected as a creation of Allah? Culturally, Arab Christians hold very much the same attitude. Again, perhaps we should be learning from this, actively discouraging people from coming to Mass dressed any old how, and teaching people (especially young people) that beauty isn't determined by the amount of flesh you have on show.

3.) Like many forms of Protestantism, Islam looks alluringly simple at first. The Qur'an has a lot of poetic verses about [i]tawhid[/i], the 'oneness' of God. To people who are struggling to get their heads round complicated theological concepts like the Trinity, this must come as a very soothing balm. The catechesis I received on topics like this was absolutely abysmal, and I know I'm not the only one. If no catechist reads out what Aquinas has to say on the infinite simplicity of our God, encourages people to meditate on the opening of John's Gospel, or talks about what Trinitarian theology means as a loving reality rather than as some abstract concept, people are going to get sucked in by the alternative offered by Islam.

4.) Practising Muslims fast, and their fast isn't easy - no food and no drink between sunrise and sundown during the month of Ramadan. That level of penance has slowly been leeched out of Christianity by liberal-minded types who want to sanitise it. But could it be that people actually recognise their need for humility and penance and are prepared to seek it? They're finding it in Islam. If this is the case, we need to make a big effort to revive a love for Lent and to teach people the meaning of Friday abstinence. For so many people, Lent is a glorified diet and Friday like any other day of the week.

5.) Muslim worship is simple enough for anyone to join in and yet absolutely beautiful. It follows a clear pattern, it involves beautiful chanting, it engages the whole person - mind and body. This is one of the things that attracted me when I flirted with the idea of conversion, as I had no idea that Catholic liturgy could be inspiring. It seems that for us to connect with the beauty of Mass and our traditional prayer, we need dozens of committees and councils to mull over the rubric - and even then we squabble about the result. All a Muslim needs is a prayer mat and a relatively quiet place. This will inevitably appeal to people. In the light of this, how can we encourage people to enter the heart of the Mass in a truly prayerful manner?

There are a lot more questions to be asked, but they don't involve the usual Western preoccupations - veils and terrorists and so on, which have recurred so frequently on Phatmass. After all, it's not veils and terrorists that hungry souls are seeing when they look at Islam. And it will be impossible for us to have any fruitful dialogue about Islam at all until this is well and truly understood. It's not the fact that Islam is discussed frequently on PM that bothers me. It's the nature and tone of those discussions.

Regarding the Pew Report itself, the American Muslim writer Saraji Umm Zaid has covered it in detail on her blog, [url="http://www.sunnisisters.com/?p=2334#more-2334"]Sunni Sister[/url]. As always, she makes some excellent points.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1279987' date='May 23 2007, 01:21 PM']I wasn't referring to your contributions specifically, but to the substance and tone of the discussion in general. All but one of the threads have focused on [i]jihad[/i], Muslim methods of [i]daw'a[/i] (evangelism), and everybody's favourite, perceived Muslim support for terrorism. The result is a two-dimensional and dangerously inaccurate picture of Islam. Just as the secular media makes it seem as if Catholicism doesn't have anything to talk about apart from sexual issues, all the PM discussions on Islam make it seem as if these things form the core of a Muslim's faith. And they don't.[/quote]

This was my point above, thou you made it clearer for some hopefully.

[quote]I agree that a Catholic needs to be sensitive to the fact that many disillusioned people are turning to Islam for spiritual solace rather than to the Church. It is the fastest-growing world religion without a doubt. But rather than seriously asking why this might be, people instantly start talking about deceptive Muslim evangelism techniques, revisionist history, and conversion by force. (The President of Iran might be drafted in to make a guest appearance for good measure.) Instead of building up our own twisted perception of what Islam is and judging accordingly, I think we should learn to see Islam as the Muslims see it - and then ask questions rather than trying to hand out answers.[/quote]You get more bees with honey then you do with vinigar.

[quote]Regarding the high conversion rate, my questions are these:

1.) Muslims pray five times each day and base their whole routine on prayer, as opposed to the numerous Catholics who just turn up to Mass once a week. Could it be that converts to Islam are responding to this regular remembrance of God? If so, shouldn't we be teaching the beauty of the Divine Office and trying to introduce this traditional prayer of the Church into the lives of lay Catholics? I didn't know what a breviary was before I got to university. I knew very little about traditional Christian prayer...and I suspect that the same is true of all those souls that are gravitating towards a religion where prayer enjoys such great prominence.

2.) In a culture where the body (particularly the female body) is used to market everything from car tyres to deodorant, eating disorders are on the rise as young people anxiously run after an unattainable standard of physical beauty, and celebrity magazines gleefully print snapshots of unfortunate film stars who happen to have gained a whole four pounds, could it be that prospective converts to Islam are moved by the respect that Islam affords to the body? The belief that it is your private property, not to be judged and scrutinised by other people, respected as a creation of Allah? Culturally, Arab Christians hold very much the same attitude. Again, perhaps we should be learning from this, actively discouraging people from coming to Mass dressed any old how, and teaching people (especially young people) that beauty isn't determined by the amount of flesh you have on show.

3.) Like many forms of Protestantism, Islam looks alluringly simple at first. The Qur'an has a lot of poetic verses about [i]tawhid[/i], the 'oneness' of God. To people who are struggling to get their heads round complicated theological concepts like the Trinity, this must come as a very soothing balm. The catechesis I received on topics like this was absolutely abysmal, and I know I'm not the only one. If no catechist reads out what Aquinas has to say on the infinite simplicity of our God, encourages people to meditate on the opening of John's Gospel, or talks about what Trinitarian theology means as a loving reality rather than as some abstract concept, people are going to get sucked in by the alternative offered by Islam.

4.) Practising Muslims fast, and their fast isn't easy - no food and no drink between sunrise and sundown during the month of Ramadan. That level of penance has slowly been leeched out of Christianity by liberal-minded types who want to sanitise it. But could it be that people actually recognise their need for humility and penance and are prepared to seek it? They're finding it in Islam. If this is the case, we need to make a big effort to revive a love for Lent and to teach people the meaning of Friday abstinence. For so many people, Lent is a glorified diet and Friday like any other day of the week.

5.) Muslim worship is simple enough for anyone to join in and yet absolutely beautiful. It follows a clear pattern, it involves beautiful chanting, it engages the whole person - mind and body. This is one of the things that attracted me when I flirted with the idea of conversion, as I had no idea that Catholic liturgy could be inspiring. It seems that for us to connect with the beauty of Mass and our traditional prayer, we need dozens of committees and councils to mull over the rubric - and even then we squabble about the result. All a Muslim needs is a prayer mat and a relatively quiet place. This will inevitably appeal to people. In the light of this, how can we encourage people to enter the heart of the Mass in a truly prayerful manner?[/quote]

These are the reasons why most [i]American[/i] converts that I know are attracted to Islam, without a doubt.

[quote]There are a lot more questions to be asked, but they don't involve the usual Western preoccupations - veils and terrorists and so on, which have recurred so frequently on Phatmass. After all, it's not veils and terrorists that hungry souls are seeing when they look at Islam. And it will be impossible for us to have any fruitful dialogue about Islam at all until this is well and truly understood. It's not the fact that Islam is discussed frequently on PM that bothers me. It's the nature and tone of those discussions.[/quote]Sadly we had a good discussion [in which you participated] a while ago, in which began with a very disrespectful view stated by an individual regarding Islam. It evolved into a full blown Qur'anic study in which that individual was proven wrong on every point, but that didn't stop the individual from posting his same ol' rhetoric afterwards, with mass support being given to him.

[quote]Regarding the Pew Report itself, the American Muslim writer Saraji Umm Zaid has covered it in detail on her blog, [url="http://www.sunnisisters.com/?p=2334#more-2334"]Sunni Sister[/url]. As always, she makes some excellent points.[/quote]

I'm glad that Saraji went over the specific details in her blog, rather then just allowing people to take it at face value. As I'd asserted above, it's very obvious that the poll was very inaccurate and that the information was misleading, as it probably was misleading to the individuals that participated in the poll also... I thought this part was most entertaining:

[quote]The Pew Center based their survey around US Census Bureau Data, but we know that the Census is prohibited from asking people about their religious affiliation.[/quote]

It's very ignorant to say that this "poll" was accurate, given the truth regarding the information.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1279987' date='May 23 2007, 04:21 PM']Regarding the Pew Report itself, the American Muslim writer Saraji Umm Zaid has covered it in detail on her blog, [url="http://www.sunnisisters.com/?p=2334#more-2334"]Sunni Sister[/url]. As always, she makes some excellent points.[/quote]I read through her commentary, as well as the "muslimmatters" commentary that she linked to. I was unable to find any "excellent" points. There was one point in which she complained about nominal Muslims being included, but I suspect that their exclusion would only result in an increase in the percentage of support for suicide bombers.