Will The Universal Indult Come Out Within A Year?

[kafka]

I hope it comes back. It will really shake up the Catholic world which I think would be a good thing. People will start asking questions, etc

[Didymus]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1279087' date='May 22 2007, 11:51 AM']Sorry, just to ensure that I'm up to speed here, the Universal Indult is essentially permission for any priest to say the Tridentine Mass without permission from his bishop, is that correct?[/quote]

Yes. The motu propio will most probably have additional instruction to the bishops as well however, as well as guidelines for the seminaries and instructions with regards to which missal to use and whatnot.

Edited May 22, 2007 by Didymus

[Aloysius]

It's going to really make me mad if they take out the prayer for the conversion Jews on Good Friday like I saw one news report say they might do to accompany this. Seriously

[Didymus]

do you think he would change it? you're talking about the whole 'profidious' thing, right? I'll bet Benedict won't change the missal. It'll probably be the '62 intact (or is it '61?, which one is allowed now by permission?)

[Era Might]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1279087' date='May 22 2007, 11:51 AM']Sorry, just to ensure that I'm up to speed here, the Universal Indult is essentially permission for any priest to say the Tridentine Mass without permission from his bishop, is that correct?[/quote]
We don't know what is going to be issued. The "universal indult" is one theory, but it probably will not be an unrestricted right to celebrate the Tridentine Mass whenever and wherever. I doubt very much that the Bishop will not have any regulation. Cardinal Hoyos said recently that "it should be clearly affirmed that this does not mean a going back, a return to the times before the reform of 1970." I don't think a Priest will be able to offer the Tridentine Mass in the parish to replace the current order of Mass, but he may be able to do so without special permission in certain circumstances. We will have to wait and see what exactly the Holy Father decides.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1279214' date='May 22 2007, 04:36 PM']do you think he would change it? you're talking about the whole 'profidious' thing, right? I'll bet Benedict won't change the missal. It'll probably be the '62 intact (or is it '61?, which one is allowed now by permission?)[/quote]
perfidious is already removed in the '62 version. That's fine with me (though personally I wouldn't have a problem with it being in there either, I would see it as a description of how they refused to accept their messiah perfidiously)... there was speculation in light of all the complaints from Jewish groups that they might remove the prayer altogether. Apparently it's insulting to pray for their conversion

The prayer reads in the 62 version:
"Let us pray also for the Jews, that our God and Lord may remove the veil from their minds, so that they, too, may acknowledge Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let us pray. Let us kneel. Arise.

Almighty, eternal God, You Who do not deprive the Jews of Your mercy, hear the prayers we offer for the blindness of that people: that, acknowledging the light of Your truth, which is Christ, they may be delivered from their darkness. Through the same Christ Our Lord. Amen"

I wonder if there are any pagan groups ready to complain to us so that we remove the prayer for the conversion of pagans? ridiculous.

It is said that the "universal indult" will give permission for private masses. Private masses do not, however, have a size limit. All that means is that it cannot take the place of the publically scheduled masses...but the priest could invite as many people as he wanted to a mass he was saying. It simply could not be advertized as one of the masses offered by the parish.

It is also said that it would force the hand of bishops when 30 or more people requested a publically scheduled mass; though the bishop may appeal to the Ecclesia Dei Commission who would then be able to disapprove the request if it were a group of 30 schismatics or sedevacantists or something like that.

[Didymus]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1279230' date='May 22 2007, 03:50 PM']perfidious is already removed in the '62 version. That's fine with me (though personally I wouldn't have a problem with it being in there either, I would see it as a description of how they refused to accept their messiah perfidiously)... there was speculation in light of all the complaints from Jewish groups that they might remove the prayer altogether. Apparently it's insulting to pray for their conversion

I wonder if there are any pagan groups ready to complain to us so that we remove the prayer for the conversion of pagans? ridiculous.[/quote]


that would be rediculous. but don't we do it even in the New Mass version of the Triduum? Are they looking to get it ousted there as well?

[Era Might]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1279230' date='May 22 2007, 03:50 PM']It is said that the "universal indult" will give permission for private masses. Private masses do not, however, have a size limit. All that means is that it cannot take the place of the publically scheduled masses...but the priest could invite as many people as he wanted to a mass he was saying. It simply could not be advertized as one of the masses offered by the parish.

It is also said that it would force the hand of bishops when 30 or more people requested a publically scheduled mass; though the bishop may appeal to the Ecclesia Dei Commission who would then be able to disapprove the request if it were a group of 30 schismatics or sedevacantists or something like that.[/quote]
Is there a category of "private Mass" in the GIRM or Canon Law? I know there is a "Mass without a congregation." A "Mass with a congregation" is defined as "a Mass celebrated with the participation of the faithful." This implies that a "Mass without a congregation" does not include the faithful.

The private Mass idea doesn't really sound like a possibility. The parish will be able to advertise, the purpose is to make it more available. I think it will probably be allowed so long as the normal Liturgical schedule of the current Mass remains. It would be seen as a sort of "extra" Mass each day or each week, if the Priest has the desire and is able to offer it. Are Priests limited in how many Masses they may offer each day? That may be a practical problem in a parish with only one or two Priests.

[cappie]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1279247' date='May 23 2007, 05:59 AM']Are Priests limited in how many Masses they may offer each day? That may be a practical problem in a parish with only one or two Priests.[/quote]

Can. 905 §1 Apart from those cases in which the law allows him to celebrate or concelebrate the Eucharist a number of times on the same day, a priest may not celebrate more than once a day.

§2 If there is a scarcity of priests, the local Ordinary may for a good reason allow priests to celebrate twice in one day or even, if pastoral need requires it, three times on Sundays or holydays of obligation.

Can. 906 A priest may not celebrate the eucharistic Sacrifice without the participation of at least one of the faithful, unless there is a good and reasonable cause for doing so.

[Aloysius]

I think there's a canonical difference between private mass and public mass, ie the public mass is the one which is scheduled with the authority of the bishop as the regular time of mass in this or that parish; but a private mass would be one which is not scheduled on a weekly basis as the normative mass... like a priest just decides to say mass for a group of people at any random time or whatever.

it's not so much that it couldn't be "advertized" it's that it wouldn't be "on Sundays you have the 8 am tridentine mass, the 10 am and 12 noon Novus Ordo Mass, then a Tridentine Mass at 2 pm" et cetera. For a parish to do that, they would have to have permission from the bishop, which the bishop would have to offer if a group of 30 or more at a parish requested it and a priest was available to do it for them.

it's about whether it's part of the "regular schedule"... I'm not sure if there is actually a canonical difference, I was under the impression that there was one between masses which are part of the regular schedule and masses that are just said at any time. the difference isn't so much the "advertizing" as it is the "scheduling" or whatever... I don't know how it's supposed to work, but that's what a lot of people have been talking about as regards how the motu proprio will make it so that the regular schedule can't just be turned into Latin Masses.

[Didymus]

People could definitely take it the wrong way i guess if it does change the regular mass schedule. It may just end up that a parish cannot go from having, for example:

7:00 Novus Ordo
9:00 Novus Ordo
11:00 Novus Ordo

to having

7:00 Novus Ordo
9:00 Novus Ordo
11:00 Tridentine

but rather be allowed to do

7:00 Novus Ordo
9:00 Novus Ordo
11:00 Novus Ordo
12:30 Tridentine

[Aloysius]

as far as I know, they would have to have permission from the bishop to do that third option; however, the bishop would not be able to deny their request if 30+ people requested it; unless he had sufficient reason like the 30+ people were all sedes or something, in which case the bishop could take his case to the Ecclesia Dei Commission who would decide whether to allow the Bishop to disallow that petition.

this is all based on rumors and speculation, though, but it seems pretty plausible to me.

and apart from all that, any priest who just wanted to gather a group together and say a Tridentine Mass would be permitted to do so, without asking the bishop at all. it would just have to be 30+ people to get to schedule it as part of the regular parish schedule.

[cappie]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1279247' date='May 23 2007, 05:59 AM']Is there a category of "private Mass" in the GIRM or Canon Law? I know there is a "Mass without a congregation." A "Mass with a congregation" is defined as "a Mass celebrated with the participation of the faithful." This implies that a "Mass without a congregation" does not include the faithful.[/quote]

Even before Vatican II, the 1960 Codex Rubricarum had contained the following statement: "The most sacred Sacrifice of the Mass celebrated according to the rites and regulations is an act of public worship offered to God in the name of Christ and the Church. Therefore, the term Private Mass should be avoided."

[Aloysius]

I don't know where I got these terms, but I'm speaking of "private mass" as one which does not fit into the regular schedule of the parish church. I'm not talking about individual priests doing masses by themselves (though personally I have no problem with that because I believe all the saints and angels attend such masses).

[jeffpugh]

Vatican Official: Pope Has Plans for Latin Mass
Says Benedict XVI Wants to Offer This "Treasure" to All

APARECIDA, Brazil, MAY 21, 2007 (Zenit.org).- The president of the Pontifical Commission "Ecclesia Dei" has confirmed that Benedict XVI hopes to increase the availability of the Latin Mass.

Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos said this Wednesday when he addressed the 5th General Conference of the Episcopate of Latin America and the Caribbean, meeting in Brazil through the end of May.

The Pontifical Commission "Ecclesia Dei" was formed by Pope John Paul II in 1988 following the schismatic gesture of the illegal episcopal ordinations carried out by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre.

The cardinal first explained that the commission was established when "a notable group of priests, religious and faithful who had shown their discontent with the conciliar liturgical reform and had congregated around the leadership of the French Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, separated themselves from him because they were not in agreement with the schismatic act of the ordination of bishops without due pontifical mandate."

"Today," Cardinal Castrillón Hoyos continued, "the commission is not limited to the service of those faithful who wished to stay in full communion on that occasion, nor to the efforts aiming to end the painful schismatic situation and achieve the return to full communion of these brothers from the Society of St. Pius X."

He said: "It is the Holy Father's wish that this dicastery additionally offers its services to satisfy the just aspirations of those who, due to a particular sensitivity -- without being linked to either of the two groups I've mentioned -- desire to keep alive the former Latin liturgy in the celebration of the Eucharist and the other sacraments."

Ending schism

However, the cardinal confirmed that "without a doubt, the most important task, which concerns the entire Church, is looking to put an end to the schismatic act and reconstruct, without ambiguousness, full communion."

Cardinal Castrillón Hoyos recalled that before being elected Pope, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger served on the commission.

"[The Holy Father] wishes that the commission become an organization of the Holy See with the particular and distinct aim of conserving and maintaining the value of the traditional Latin liturgy," Cardinal Castrillón Hoyos said. "But it should be clearly affirmed that this does not mean a going back, a return to the times before the reform of 1970.

"Instead, it means a generous offer of the Vicar of Christ, who, as an expression of his pastoral will, wants to put the treasures of the Latin liturgy that nourished the spiritual life of so many generation of faithful Catholics for so many centuries at the disposal of the entire Church.

"The recovery of this richness is united to the not-less-precious current liturgy of the Church."

Cardinal Castrillón Hoyos explained that the Pope intends to extend to the entire Church the possibility of celebrating Mass and the sacraments according to the liturgical books promulgated by Pope John XXIII in 1962.

He thus seemed to confirm rumors from earlier in the year that Benedict XVI intended to make the Latin Mass more available.

Coexistence

The 77-year-old cardinal mentioned the "good experiences had by communities of religious and apostolic life" that celebrate "this liturgy in peace and serenity." And he recalled that in Brazil, the Diocese of Campos, formerly followers of Lefebvre "and now, after five years, showing good fruits" after their return to full communion.

"The project of the Holy Father has already been partially tested in de Campos where the peaceful cohabitation of the two forms of the only Roman rite in the Church is a beautiful reality," he said. "We have the hopes that this model will produce good fruits, also in other places in the Church where faithful Catholics with distinct liturgical sensitivities live together."

Cardinal Hoyos said that "Ecclesia Dei" oversees some 300 priests and 200 seminarians as well as hundreds of thousands of faithful. He said the Society of St. Pius X has four bishops, ordained by Archbishop Lefebvre, 500 priests and about 600,000 faithful.

He asked "that we pray to the Lord so that the Holy Father's project can soon become a reality for the unity of the Church."
ZE07052111

[color="#8B0000"]Sounds like the Papa has something in mind soon. Again, I guess we're just goona have to wait. Btw, I'm not familiar with the aforementioned Schismatic group. Is the Eucharist valid? My guess is no... but just out of curiousity... [/color]

Edited May 22, 2007 by Sacred Music Man