Your Thoughts On Praying The Rosary, To Mary, And Other Saints

[Aloysius]

yes. the quaint little apologetic device of "we don't pray TO saints but THROUGH saints" is useful, but slightly flawed.

it makes a good point about how all the prayers are expected to be answered by God's power.

like If I said "I pray you, pray to God for me" I'd be praying you, but one might say "he's not praying to you, he's praying through you to God" and that'd be accurate enough to make the point that it was God-centered prayer.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1279285' date='May 22 2007, 03:40 PM']Though you must admit, Catholics are [i]very[/i] sloppy with their language in this regard...[/quote]


[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1279457' date='May 22 2007, 06:50 PM']But we do pray TO saints. The definitions of pray are:

1 : ENTREAT, IMPLORE -- often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful>
2 : to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

The we pray to Saints would fit the first and thrid definitions.[/quote]


[quote name='Aloysius' post='1279462' date='May 22 2007, 07:02 PM']yes. the quaint little apologetic device of "we don't pray TO saints but THROUGH saints" is useful, but slightly flawed.

it makes a good point about how all the prayers are expected to be answered by God's power.

like If I said "I pray you, pray to God for me" I'd be praying you, but one might say "he's not praying to you, he's praying through you to God" and that'd be accurate enough to make the point that it was God-centered prayer.[/quote]

Well, let's take the "Hail Mary," for example:
[i]
Hail Mary, full of grace,
the Lord is with you.
Blessed are you among women,
and blessed in the fruit of your womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners
now and at the hour of our death.[/i]

There's no praying [i]to[/i] Mary here, only asking for her prayers. In the context of my point about the Communion of Saints, does anyone have a problem with that?

[cathoholic_anonymous]

The Hail Mary is my favourite prayer of all time. The whole mystery of the Incarnation is condensed in there. I think it is a shame that so many people (even Catholics) don't fully realise what the prayer is. I kick myself for all those years when my rosary was just a string of beads to me...

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1280361' date='May 24 2007, 08:52 AM']The Hail Mary is my favourite prayer of all time. The whole mystery of the Incarnation is condensed in there. I think it is a shame that so many people (even Catholics) don't fully realise what the prayer is. I kick myself for all those years when my rosary was just a string of beads to me...[/quote]
I agree ... it is a truly beautiful prayer.

Although, I don't so much kick myself for the years I didn't know how beautiful it is ... God reveals things to us when it's time for us to know them. There was definitely a time when I wasn't ready to accept or understand the rosary, so I'm thankful for God's patient persistence in helping me to grow to a place where I do appreciate it.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='prose' post='1279149' date='May 22 2007, 02:54 PM']I think something I take offense to sometimes in Phatmass is the crudeness of thread titles. I don't know if mods can change them, but some of them are downright awful.

This thread is one, and the "Folk Magician" thread is another. It seems like people can get away with putting whatever title they want on a thread even if it is offensive to Catholics.

my .02.

Sorry. Return to thread.[/quote]

Crudeness is found everywhere... nothing unique to Phatmass at all, but this is a debate thread and I relate to the poster being "creeped out" by prayer to saints. A lot of Catholic things seem pretty creepy to people coming from the Evangelical side of things, even great blessings like Eucharistic miracles and Our Lady of Guadalupe. Protestants don't have a context for absorbing such miraculous encounters with God, so the natural reaction to anything unknown (especially the supernatural) is fear. Mary felt the same fear when Gabriel appeared to her... not so much creeped out, of course, but definitely a fear of the unknown and divine power in her presence.

Anyway, is this thread a genuine debate anymore? I didn't notice anything recent from God Chaser. But for all we know, he most likely has our best interests at heart and genuinely loves Christ and wants to share the Gospel as he understands it. For all we know, he is cloaking his curiosity about Catholicism behind open attacks against the faith At any rate, I feel like if we are secure in the Truth, most of these everyday attacks against the Truth shouldn't offend us. To me, becoming offended is a sign of weakness expressed brought by fear.

Granted, some things cross a line of common decency and respect and should cause us to be offended. But this guy? I dunno... I feel like there are bigger fish to fry.

[GodChaser]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1279457' date='May 22 2007, 06:50 PM']But we do pray TO saints. The definitions of pray are:

1 : ENTREAT, IMPLORE -- often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful>
2 : to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

The we pray to Saints would fit the first and thrid definitions.[/quote]

If 1 and 3 are the definitions, you prove my point StThomasMore.

Thanks.

I would never pray to anybody but God through the name of Jesus Christ.

He is all I need to get through the day.

Catholics overcomplicate things too much.

Jesus is a healer, so I don't have to pray to a saint who is the saint of healing - In my name you shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. Jesus is a deliverer - in my name you shall cast out devils. Jesus is a intercessor - what so ever ye ask the father in my name, he shall do it. Jesus is salvation - there is no other name in heaven and earth in which a man must be saved.

It is all found in one man.

[quote name='"Colossians 2:8-12' date=' KJV"']Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.[/quote]

Fulness, Complete, buried in Baptism in him. Wow. No other person in the world needs to hear my prayers, because I got a the perfect person that I can pray to - Jesus Christ, who will send my requests to the Father!

[mortify]

Godchaser,

First question.

1) Why [b]call[/b] on people to pray for you when you can bring your personal needs directly to Jesus?
[size=1]"Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. [...]Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective."
James 5: 14-16[/size]

Edit add:[size=1]I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers,[b][u] intercession [/u][/b]and thanksgiving be made for everyone— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. [b]This is [u]good[/u], and pleases God our Savior[/b]
1 timothy 2[/size]

Edited May 26, 2007 by mortify

[Ragamuffin]

So in other words GodChaser, you never ask anyone else to pray for you. Just you and God. In fact, I'd take this idea of yours to its logical conclusion and if anyone offers to pray for you, refuse. Tell them not to do it. You don't need anyone else to intercede for you because you and God are so tight.

Look, I've been a Protestant all my life. Asking saints in heaven to pray for me is not something I've done either. But I'm finding it harder and harder to find fault with the practice from a Biblical perspective, much less a historical one.

[mortify]

[quote name='Ragamuffin' post='1281479' date='May 25 2007, 10:28 PM']Look, I've been a Protestant all my life. Asking saints in heaven to pray for me is not something I've done either. But I'm finding it harder and harder to find fault with the practice from a Biblical perspective, much less a historical one.[/quote]

The greatest blow to protestantism is history, early Christianity bears no resemblance to it.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Ragamuffin' post='1281479' date='May 25 2007, 10:28 PM']Look, I've been a Protestant all my life. Asking saints in heaven to pray for me is not something I've done either. But I'm finding it harder and harder to find fault with the practice from a Biblical perspective, much less a historical one.[/quote]

[quote name='mortify' post='1281482' date='May 25 2007, 10:39 PM']The greatest blow to protestantism is history, early Christianity bears no resemblance to it.[/quote]


and the Bible ... Catholicism is solidly Biblical, more so than any of the Protestant denominations I was part of. It makes sense of the whole truth of Scripture and history.


(btw ... Ragamuffin, is your SN a tribute to [url="http://www.amazon.com/Ragamuffin-Gospel-Bedraggled-Beat-Up-Burnt/dp/1590525027/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-7347094-4908836?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180151996&sr=8-2"]The Ragamuffin Gospel by Brennan Manning[/url] or to Rich Mullins? Just wondering ...)

[Ragamuffin]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1281486' date='May 25 2007, 11:03 PM']

and the Bible ... Catholicism is solidly Biblical, more so than any of the Protestant denominations I was part of. It makes sense of the whole truth of Scripture and history.
(btw ... Ragamuffin, is your SN a tribute to [url="http://www.amazon.com/Ragamuffin-Gospel-Bedraggled-Beat-Up-Burnt/dp/1590525027/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-7347094-4908836?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180151996&sr=8-2"]The Ragamuffin Gospel by Brennan Manning[/url] or to Rich Mullins? Just wondering ...)[/quote]
Both, but mostly Rich. I enjoyed Brennan's book. I loved Rich's music and still feel a great sense of loss from his death though I didn't know him personally.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Ragamuffin' post='1281488' date='May 25 2007, 11:09 PM']Both, but mostly Rich. I enjoyed Brennan's book. I loved Rich's music and still feel a great sense of loss from his death though I didn't know him personally.[/quote]
Rich is one of the few Christian artists I actually like. Love, actually. I saw him perform a couple of times at my undergrad. Fantastic lyricist and musician ... I've heard he was entering RCIA (the process to become Catholic) when he was killed, although I don't know that I've ever seen anything official on that.

[Theologian in Training]

I did a meditation on the "Hail Mary" which I posted over in the Open Mic forum, and which I will post here as well. You will see that the "Hail Mary" is more biblcal than you think, and not only that, by glorifying Mary, glorifies her Son, Jesus all the more.

[b]Hail, Mary[/b]
The first time we are introduced to Mary is with these words from an angel, a woman completely unknown, a virgin from Nazareth, greeted as a queen would be greeted. Is it any wonder why She would be greatly troubled by such an invocation? Her whole world changed with that greeting and with Her consent. Gabriel spoke thus and we repeat this simple salutation.

[b]Full of Grace[/b]
To be full means there is no room for anything else, to be filled to capacity, to the point of overflowing. That is why Mary can dispense such grace, Her grace, to us.

[b]The Lord is with Thee[/b]
Indeed. For, first She was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, and then bore a Son, our Emmanuel, in Her womb. She is the first and most beautiful tabernacle.

[b]Blessed art thou, amongst women[/b]
These are the first words out of Elizabeth’s mouth, upon seeing her cousin. Her child leapt in her womb and she knew the Holy Spirit was with Mary. She is not only blessed, but blessed among all women, because no other woman in history bore God Himself, nor will any other woman do so in the future.

[b]And blessed if the fruit of thy womb[/b]
And yet, this is why Mary is so blessed, this is what makes Mary so great, the fruit of her womb.

[b]Jesus[/b]
As a mother introduces her child, so too does Mary introduce us to Her child as well.

A child, whose name is both the hinge and the supporting structure of this prayer, the pinnacle, the person to whom it points, the life of whom it remembers.

[b]Holy Mary[/b]
The most humble woman, the most powerful saint, our great model of sanctity, the sublime example of holiness. To be truly holy we must be truly humble and to be humble we have to be, as Mary was, a mere vessel through which Christ can work. She was told She would bear God Himself and simply said, “Be it done unto me according to your word.”

[b]Mother of God[/b]
A child only dwells in the womb of the mother. God chose Mary’s womb. She is the Mother of God. Yet, before He died Christ gave us His Mother at the foot of the cross to be our help, our hope, and our protection. "Woman, behold, your son!" Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!"

[b]Pray, for us sinners[/b]
All of us are great sinners and in need of great prayer. What better person, then the greatest of all saints to offer Her prayers for us, on our behalf. Constantly interceding for us that we may one day see Her, only for Her to bring us to Her Son.

[b]Now, and at the hour of our death[/b]
How beautiful to know that She intercedes for us even now, but, even more, in our final hours here on earth. What an amazing Mother to want nothing but the best for Her children, to see us ultimately united with Her Son.

[b]Amen[/b]
So be it, let it be.

Edited May 26, 2007 by Theologian in Training

[Ragamuffin]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1281490' date='May 25 2007, 11:13 PM']Rich is one of the few Christian artists I actually like. Love, actually. I saw him perform a couple of times at my undergrad. Fantastic lyricist and musician ... I've heard he was entering RCIA (the process to become Catholic) when he was killed, although I don't know that I've ever seen anything official on that.[/quote]
It wouldn't have surprised me to find out he was becoming Catholic. I think you can hear [i]A Liturgy, A Legacy and a Ragamuffin Band[/i] and get some hints he was at lest sympathetic to it. Rich was just a unique individual. I worked in the CCM industry for a number of years and heard so many stories from people who did know him and when he died it only made me wish I'd found a way to meet him. Unlike the typical dreck that passes for lyrics, Rich's songs had depth and beauty to them even as they retained an earthy and human quality.

[Aloysius]

Asking someone to pray for you could be re-wored "praying to someone to pray for you"

The word's been completely wrenched out of context such that Godchaser thinks "prayer" is something that can only be directed at God. ridiculous, it takes the word and attributes it another meaning, as if "prayer" necessarily entailed "latria" or "worship". it does not... it's really just a respectful way of asking someone something... it might carry the connotation that the person being asked is greater than the asker, but it doesn't even need to hold that context for it to be used correctly.

I pray you, godchaser, stop redefining words in the english language to fit your theological agenda