Errors Of The Pope

[dairygirl4u2c]

anyone who says it, please state how the pope has contradicted himself or other popes in faith and morals to the church.
if you think there are other errors, i'm interested in those too but not as much as a contradiction.

[RezaMikhaeil]

One of my favorites:

[quote]Pius X also confirmed the existence of Limbo in Roman Catholic theology in his 1905 Catechism, saying that the unbaptized "do not have the joy of God but neither do they suffer... they do not deserve Paradise, but neither do they deserve Hell or Purgatory."[/quote]

While other Popes, including the current Pope have said otherwise.

[CatholicCid]

Reza, where in the Catechism of St. Pope Pius X is that? I searched for "do not have" and "joy of" and "deserve Paradise" and "deserve" and "Hell or" and I couldn't find it.

I used this online copy, assuming it was complete, [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/PIUSXCAT.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/PIUSXCAT.HTM[/url]

Unless your quotes were not direct quotes, though they seem to be.

[RezaMikhaeil]

I don't recall the exact article, but here are four of them, that state about the same thing. I'll try to find it in the original documents online.

[url="http://www.religioustolerance.org/limbo2.htm"]http://www.religioustolerance.org/limbo2.htm[/url]
[url="http://blog.qusan.com/2007/04/released-from-limbo.html"]http://blog.qusan.com/2007/04/released-from-limbo.html[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic.net/the_road_to_heaven/template_article.phtml?channel_id=16&article_id=3678"]http://www.catholic.net/the_road_to_heaven...article_id=3678[/url]
[mod]Link edited. --Era Might[/mod]

[quote]bullet 1958: The Holy Office (once the Inquisition and now the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) was critical of some believers who delayed baptism because of their belief in Limbo. They concluded: "Therefore this Supreme Congregation, with the approval of the Holy Father, warns the faithful that infants are to be baptized as soon as possible..." (Acta L, 114).[/quote]

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1276374' date='May 18 2007, 03:23 AM']One of my favorites:
While other Popes, including the current Pope have said otherwise.[/quote]Interestingly, the website "religioustolerance.org" cites your favorite St. Gregory of Nazianzus on the subject:[quote]St. Gregory of Nazianzus (circa 329 - circa 390) commented in Orat., XL, 23 that infants dying without baptism "will neither be admitted by the just judge to the glory of Heaven nor condemned to suffer punishment, since, though unsealed [by baptism], they are not wicked."[/quote]Pope Pius X seems to be echoing St. Gregory's statement.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1276385' date='May 18 2007, 01:32 AM']Interestingly, the website "religioustolerance.org" cites your favorite St. Gregory of Nazianzus on the subject:Pope Pius X seems to be echoing St. Gregory's statement.[/quote]

Interesting quote, he could be.

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1276383' date='May 18 2007, 02:22 AM']I don't recall the exact article, but here are four of them, that state about the same thing. I'll try to find it in the original documents online.

[url="http://www.religioustolerance.org/limbo2.htm"]http://www.religioustolerance.org/limbo2.htm[/url]
[url="http://blog.qusan.com/2007/04/released-from-limbo.html"]http://blog.qusan.com/2007/04/released-from-limbo.html[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic.net/the_road_to_heaven/template_article.phtml?channel_id=16&article_id=3678"]http://www.catholic.net/the_road_to_heaven...article_id=3678[/url]
[mod]Link edited. --Era Might[/mod][/quote]

Well, your 1st link says
[quote]Pope Pius X made a definitive declaration confirming the existence of Limbo. [u]However, this was not an infallible statement by the pope[/u]:

"Children who die without baptism go into limbo, where they do not enjoy God, but they do not suffer either, because having Original Sin, and only that, they do not deserve paradise, but neither hell or purgatory."[/quote]
If that what you are thinking of.

The 3rd link also expands on the issue.
[quote]The 1905 Catechism of St Pius X teaches that children who die without being baptized are destined to limbo. However, the Catechism, which Pius X wrote before his elevation to the papacy, was never directed to the universal Church. It is not an authoritative papal definition.[/quote]
This is actually interesting to read, because I never really was sure the state of these writings.

And the bullet part seems to just be saying don't be playing with a loaded gun basically. This would seem a good statement especially if the Church has yet to define a matter (so I don't think a Pope could be in Error on it). But this is about errors, not Limbo so let's not hijack the topic too much.

Edited May 18, 2007 by CatholicCid

[Katholikos]

Since the subject of this thread is the infallibility of the Pope, it might help to know what that term means.

From Vatican Council I:

"The Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex-cathedra -- that is, when in discharge of the office of pastor and teacher of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the divine Redeemer willed that His Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals; and therefore such definitions are irreformable of themselves and not in virtue of the consent of the Church." (Denzinger 3074)

- The bearer of the infallibility is every lawful Pope as successor of St. Peter.

- The Pope alone is infallibile (and the bishops collectively in certain circumstances), not others to whom he delegates a part of his teaching authority; e.g. the Roman congregations.

- Infallibility applies only to matters of faith and morals.

- The Pope must have the intention of declaring something unchangeably true.

- The Pope must speak as shepherd and teacher of [b]all[/b] the faithful with the full weight of his apostolic authority, and not merely as a private theologian.

- The source of the infallibility is the supernatural assistance of the Holy Spirit, who protects the supreme teacher of the Church from error and therefore from misleading the People of God.

Reference: John A. Hardon, S.J., [i]Modern Catholic Dictionary[/i]

So, not everything a Pope says or writes or publishes is infallible.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1276385' date='May 18 2007, 01:32 AM']Interestingly, the website "religioustolerance.org" cites your favorite St. Gregory of Nazianzus on the subject:Pope Pius X seems to be echoing St. Gregory's statement.
[quote]St. Gregory of Nazianzus (circa 329 - circa 390) commented in Orat., XL, 23 that infants dying without baptism "will neither be admitted by the just judge to the glory of Heaven nor condemned to suffer punishment, since, though unsealed [by baptism], they are not wicked."[/quote][/quote]
It should be pointed out that at when St. Gregory begins talking about this subject in his [i]Oration[/i] he states that he is merely giving his opinion. Moreover, the Eastern Churches (both Catholic and Orthodox) have always rejected the idea that there is a [i]limbus puerorum[/i]; instead, there is only the vision of God or hell, but -- of course -- within both of these ends there are varying degrees of glory (in the case of beatitude) or suffering (in the case of hell).

God bless,
Todd

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1276479' date='May 18 2007, 11:51 AM']It should be pointed out that at when St. Gregory begins talking about this subject in his [i]Oration[/i] he states that he is merely giving his opinion. Moreover, the Eastern Churches (both Catholic and Orthodox) have always rejected the idea that there is a [i]limbus puerorum[/i]; instead, there is only the vision of God or hell, but -- of course -- within both of these ends there are varying degrees of glory (in the case of beatitude) or suffering (in the case of hell).

God bless,
Todd[/quote]Right. The Greek Fathers distinguish between [i]poena damni [/i]and [i]poena sensus [/i](cf. Ott). In any event, there's no explicit mention of limbo in either quote.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1276503' date='May 18 2007, 09:08 AM']Right. The Greek Fathers distinguish between [i]poena damni [/i]and [i]poena sensus [/i](cf. Ott). In any event, there's no explicit mention of limbo in either quote.[/quote]
I have never seen a distinction between "poena damni" and "poena sensus" in any of the writings of the Eastern Fathers that I have read.

Ott tends to read the Greek (Eastern) Fathers in the light of the Scholastics teaching, while I (and Eastern Christians in general) do not.

God bless,
Todd

[Mateo el Feo]

The St. Gregory makes the distinction in the quote above. Though, as far as other Greek Fathers go, I'm taking Ott's word for it, not having verified it yet myself.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1276564' date='May 18 2007, 10:09 AM']The St. Gregory makes the distinction in the quote above. Though, as far as other Greek Fathers go, I'm taking Ott's word for it, not having verified it yet myself.[/quote]
No he doesn't. He simply says that they will not be "glorified" nor will they "suffer." As an Eastern Christian I hold that they receive the vision of God, but that they do not receive the glory given through baptism or through ascetic virtue. On the other hand, a baptized baby that dies receives the glory given through the sacrament, but he does not receive the glory given through the practice of virtue. There will be degrees of glory for those who participate in the vision of God, but there is no "limbo" nor is an innocent person damned.

You are applying categories of thought to St. Gregory's [i]Oration[/i] that he did not use. Moreover, it is important to remember that East and West understand the effects of Adam's sin differently, as the document issued by the ITC itself admits, because for the Eastern Fathers the ancestral sin brings mortality, but no one is born "sinful."

[dairygirl4u2c]

Are there any rebuttals for the "opinion" argument that the Pope said it was merely his opinion, and all the other arguments posted?

Are there other potential examples of contradictions?

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1276569' date='May 18 2007, 01:13 PM']No he doesn't. He simply says that they will not be "glorified" nor will they "suffer."[/quote]The [i]poena damni[/i] is, by definition, what St. Gregory said: no suffering. In any event, a "hell without suffering" or a "heaven without glory" sure start sounding like limbo pretty quickly.

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1276569' date='May 18 2007, 01:13 PM']As an Eastern Christian I hold that they receive the vision of God, but that they do not receive the glory given through baptism or through ascetic virtue.[/quote]So we are born saved? I guess that's a bit confusing for me.

I think the issue is to what extent are these issues defined (or not) by the Church. There is a freedom to hold varying opinions about this topic, because the Church has not made a formal pronouncement on the subject of limbo. But, there are dogmatic statements regarding salvation, damnation, and original sin which place limitations on our freedom to speculate.

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1276569' date='May 18 2007, 01:13 PM']On the other hand, a baptized baby that dies receives the glory given through the sacrament, but he does not receive the glory given through the practice of virtue. There will be degrees of glory for those who participate in the vision of God, but there is no "limbo" nor is an innocent person damned.[/quote]The statement "there is no 'limbo' nor is an innocent person damned" may just be a matter of semantics.

I would be interested in learning the basis for your statements, if you'd like to start a limbo thread or could link to an existing thread.

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1276569' date='May 18 2007, 01:13 PM']You are applying categories of thought to St. Gregory's [i]Oration[/i] that he did not use.[/quote]I quoted him directly because I thought his statement so closely resembled Pope Pius X.

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1276569' date='May 18 2007, 01:13 PM']Moreover, it is important to remember that East and West understand the effects of Adam's sin differently, as the document issued by the ITC itself admits, because for the Eastern Fathers the ancestral sin brings mortality, but no one is born "sinful."[/quote]I'll plead ignorance in the hope that another thread might help me understand better.

I don't want to sidetrack Dairy's topic any further. In neither case (i.e. Pope Pius X or St. Gregory) was a formal Church dogma/doctrine being pronounced. As far as contradictions go, a real contradiction (one relevant to papal infallibility) would have to show a pope who disagreed with Sacred Tradition and a specific defined dogma/doctrine. For this reason, speculation on limbo (even made by a pope) would not apply to this thread.