Moving The Ascension

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1277478' date='May 19 2007, 11:59 AM']Most Eastern Catholic Churches now celebrate Easter on the same day as the Latin Church celebrates it.[/quote]
This is a Latinization that effects Eastern Catholics in the United States and Canada, and it is a modern change (e.g., the Ruthenian Catholic Church only began celebrating Easter according to the Latin usage in the 1930s). That said, Eastern Catholics in most of the "old" countries continue to observe Easter (Pascha) on the same day as the Orthodox Churches.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1277740' date='May 19 2007, 02:37 PM']And either way, the tradition is that all novenas come from the very first novena prayed by the Apostles in the Upper Room, when they locked themselves in and prayed for 9 days before Pentecost Sunday. I do believe a 9 day period between Ascension and Pentecost is common to East and West in memory of this.[/quote]
Yes, it is common to East and West.

[mortify]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1277845' date='May 19 2007, 07:56 PM']The "Old Calendar" versus the "New Calendar" issue in Orthodoxy has nothing to do with transferring feasts from weekdays to Sundays; instead, it concerns the use of the Julian as opposed to the Gregorian calendar. The Eastern Orthodox Churches would never destroy the liturgical cycle for the sake of convenience.[/quote]

Apotheon, however my understanding is accepting the new calendar was also [i]once[/i] considered unthinkable. I'm simply saying it's not like the East hasn't been affected, your traditions are being attacked as well.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1277849' date='May 19 2007, 08:01 PM']This is a Latinization that effects Eastern Catholics in the United States and Canada, and it is a modern change (e.g., the Ruthenian Catholic Church only began celebrating Easter according to the Latin usage in the 1930s). That said, Eastern Catholics in most of the "old" countries continue to observe Easter (Pascha) on the same day as the Orthodox Churches.[/quote]

Not accepting the Gregorian Calendar is disobedant to Pope Gregory XIII's bull Inter Gravissimas.

[Apotheoun]

StThomasMore,

The Popes have never required the Eastern Catholic Churches to adopt the Gregorian calendar for the liturgy. In fact, as I already pointed out, Eastern Catholics in their home territories continue to use the Julian calendar, and the Ruthenian Catholic Church in America only adopted the Gregorian calendar (by its own choice) in the 1930s, after the Pope Pius XI caused a schism in the Ruthenian Church by forbidding the ordination of married men to the priesthood in America.

Mortify,

I have never said that Eastern Catholics (and Orthodox) are not under attack in American culture. What I have said is that neither of the two groups will alter their liturgical cycle in order to conform it to the pragmatic approach of Americans. The ongoing Protestantization of worship in the Latin rite is a sad thing to witness.

God bless,
Todd

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1278041' date='May 20 2007, 12:20 PM']StThomasMore,

The Popes have never required the Eastern Catholic Churches to adopt the Gregorian calendar for the liturgy. In fact, as I already pointed out, Eastern Catholics in their home territories continue to use the Julian calendar, and the Ruthenian Catholic Church in America only adopted the Gregorian calendar (by its own choice) in the 1930s, after the Pope Pius XI caused a schism in the Ruthenian Church by forbidding the ordination of married men to the priesthood in America.

Mortify,

I have never said that Eastern Catholics (and Orthodox) are not under attack in American culture. What I have said is that neither of the two groups will alter their liturgical cycle in order to conform it to the pragmatic approach of Americans. The ongoing Protestantization of worship in the Latin rite is a sad thing to witness.

God bless,
Todd[/quote]

Actually the Pope commanded all Christian Churches to switch to the Gregorian calendar in 1582 orwhatever year they recieved the letter.

[quote][b]Inter Gravissimas:[/b]
We thus remove and absolutely abolish the old calendar and we wish that all the patriarchs, primacies, archbishops, bishops, abbots and other leaders of Churches put into force for the reading of the divine office and the celebration of the festivals, each one in his Church, monastery, convent, command, army or diocese, the new calendar, to which was adapted the martyrology, and make use only of this one, as well as all the other priests and clerks, secular and regular, of the both genders, as well as soldiers and all Christians, this calendar whose use will start after the ten days removal of October 1582. As for those however which live in areas too distant to take knowledge of this letter in time, they are allowed to make such a change in October of the year which will follow immediately, namely 1583, or the next one, as soon, of course, as this letter will have come to them, in the manner that we indicated above and as that will be more abundantly explained in the calendar of the year of the reform.
[url="http://www.bluewaterarts.com/calendar/NewInterGravissimas.htm"]http://www.bluewaterarts.com/calendar/NewI...Gravissimas.htm[/url][/quote]

[Era Might]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1278041' date='May 20 2007, 01:20 PM']What I have said is that neither of the two groups will alter their liturgical cycle in order to conform it to the pragmatic approach of Americans. The ongoing Protestantization of worship in the Latin rite is a sad thing to witness.[/quote]
Eastern Christians are not obligated to treat the Feast as a Sunday, they are not obligated to take the day off from work, they are not even obligated to attend the Liturgy. That makes it easier to leave the Feast as it is. The Law was made for man, and so were Feasts. If the Bishop determines that it is spiritually profitable to transfer the Feast so that more Catholics can celebrate it with the rest proper to its solemnity, there is nothing "Protestant" or suspect about that.

[quote]Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

--Colossians 2:16-17[/quote]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1278048' date='May 20 2007, 11:44 AM']Actually the Pope commanded all Christian Churches to switch to the Gregorian calendar in 1582 orwhatever year they recieved the letter.[/quote]
Like many Papal disciplinary documents it asserts things that cannot actually be enforced outside of the Roman Rite.

By the way, the Melkite Catholic Church in Syria recently returned to the observance of Easter on the same day as the Orthodox (i.e., following the Julian calendar).



StThomasMore,

Your reading of disciplinary documents (e.g., "Quo Primum") seems to be at variance with the reading accepted by the present Pope, who has no problem with Eastern Catholics following the Julian calendar.

God bless,
Todd

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1278051' date='May 20 2007, 11:55 AM']Eastern Christians are not obligated to treat the Feast as a Sunday, they are not obligated to take the day off from work, they are not even obligated to attend the Liturgy. That makes it easier to leave the Feast as it is. The Law was made for man, and so were Feasts. If the Bishop determines that it is spiritually profitable to transfer the Feast so that more Catholics can celebrate it with the rest proper to its solemnity, there is nothing "Protestant" or suspect about that.[/quote]
Although it is true that Eastern Christians do not have the Roman concept of "holy days of obligation"; nevertheless, if an Eastern Christian failed to attend divine liturgy for any period of time he would be considered have excommunicated himself.

The ongoing destruction of the venerable and ancient Roman rite by moving feasts to Sundays (e.g., Epiphany, Ascension, Corpus Christi, et al.) for the sake of convenience is a sad thing to see, and it also creates a new obstacle to ecumenical dialogue. My Eastern Orthodox friends look at the present state of liturgical practice in the Roman rite and are repulsed by what they see happening (e.g., moving feasts around, clown masses, Barney masses, etc.). Moreover, the liturgy is intended not only to sanctify man, but also time and every other aspect of human existence. Relegating divine worship to Sundays is a Protestant practice.

God bless,
Todd

P.S. - I expect to see Christmas Sunday pretty soon.

[Era Might]

The moving of a Feast does not relegate worship to a Sunday, it moves the Feast to a Sunday. The Mass is still offered, and Catholics everywhere still pray and worship. The moving of the Feast makes it easier for Catholics to celebrate the solemnity on a day when they are better able to cease from servile labor, and can enter into the Feast with all proper attention. The primary purpose of a Feast is to celebrate it. The Church is here to sanctify souls above all else, and she has given her Bishops the authority to accomodate certain Feasts if they see an opportunity to better sanctify souls. Easter is celebrated on a different date every year. The Lord is not worried about the date that his Church establishes to celebrate a Feast, he is worried that we actually worship him, in spirit and in truth. If we celebrate his Ascension on a Thursday or a Sunday, we still celebrate his Ascension. The Church has the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, and she is the only authority that may determine what is acceptable in her public worship. She has determined that it is acceptable for the Bishops to transfer Feasts with approval from the Holy See.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1278154' date='May 20 2007, 04:24 PM']The moving of a Feast does not relegate worship to a Sunday, it moves the Feast to a Sunday. The Mass is still offered, and Catholics everywhere still pray and worship. The moving of the Feast makes it easier for Catholics to celebrate the solemnity on a day when they are better able to cease from servile labor, and can enter into the Feast with all proper attention. The primary purpose of a Feast is to celebrate it. The Church is here to sanctify souls above all else, and she has given her Bishops the authority to accomodate certain Feasts if they see an opportunity to better sanctify souls. Easter is celebrated on a different date every year. The Lord is not worried about the date that his Church establishes to celebrate a Feast, he is worried that we actually worship him, in spirit and in truth. If we celebrate his Ascension on a Thursday or a Sunday, we still celebrate his Ascension. The Church has the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, and she is the only authority that may determine what is acceptable in her public worship. She has determined that it is acceptable for the Bishops to transfer Feasts with approval from the Holy See.[/quote]
We clearly are not going to agree.

That said, based upon your reasoning the Latin Church should simply move all its feasts to Sundays and be done with it. I thank God that I am no longer Latin Catholic.

God bless,
Todd

P.S. - I look forward to the day when Good Friday, Holy Thursday, All Saints, Christmas, etc., are celebrated on Sunday in the Latin Rite. I am sure that attendance at these services will be higher on Sundays than if they were celebrated properly.

[Era Might]

It is not Feasts that are moved, but Holy Days of Obligation, because the West has a more strict discipline than the East, and expects the faithful to cease from labor and treat these days as a Sunday. In a perfect world, we could all take off five days a year from work and treat each Holy Day of Obligation as a Sunday. The Church has given the Bishops permission to transfer certain Holy Days of Obligation to Sunday, to emphasize the importance of the Feast, and give the faithful a chance to celebrate the Feast with appropriate rest. This is a spiritual accomodation in the world today, when it is not easy to take days off at random, and when the world is not a Catholic society that gives these days off. The rule of law is the salvation of souls, because the law was made for man, and not man for the law.

[Apotheoun]

That is incorrect, the feast itself is moved.

Moreover, I would hardly describe the discipline of the West as "strict." In fact, discipline in the West at the present time is lax, that is, if it exists at all.

[Era Might]

Yes, the Feast is moved, but the Feasts that are moved are Holy Days of Obligation, not random Feasts. The other Feasts throughout the year do not obligate Catholics to cease from servile labor or to attend Mass. These obligations are attached to emphasize the importance of the Feast; in order to help Catholics in the modern world, the Bishops have the authority to transfer these Holy Days of Obligation to a Sunday, so that the aspect of rest and special attention are emphasized. The alternative for many Catholics is that they would not be able to take the day off from work, and would only attend Mass if they are able, but the Church wants to give the Feast more attention than that. These specific Feasts are special, and because Sunday is a recognized day of rest in society, the Bishops may use this to their advantage to transfer the Feast and highlight its importance.

[Apotheoun]

If you can move one feast, you can move them all. The Latin Church's liturgy continues to disintegrate, because the most important thing to the Latin Bishops is convenience. Ascesis is not about convenience.

The liturgy sanctifies time too, not just man.