Do You View Bush As Pro Life?

[Socrates]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1276112' date='May 17 2007, 07:04 PM']It's not "bush bashing", check yourself. It's simply stating the facts, Mr. Bush promised his followers that he'd outlaw abortion, he didn't do it. Simple and plain.[/quote]
I don't recall Bush ever promising that he'd outlaw abortion.

Bush has done things such as nominate pro-life SCOTUS candidates and veto bills funding abortions.

But he never promised that he'd personally [b]outlaw[/b] abortion.
If you claim he did, I'd like to see a quote and source.

[Socrates]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1275849' date='May 17 2007, 02:09 PM']I do not consider him very pro-life, although he's done some nice things for the pro-life cause. But I do not take into consideration his support of the death penalty because I fully support the death penalty and do not see that as a factor in "pro-life" or not.[/quote]
Agreed.

[mofca]

It is puzzling to me how one can support the death penalty and be pro life at the same time. In both cases, a human life is extinguished by another human being. Yes, abortions are innocent children as opposed to hardened criminals with the death penalty. My point has to do with the war. Tens of thousands of innocent people have died as a direct result of Bush's decision to go to war. Doesn't it seem like the Bush administration's foreign policy canceled out it's pro-life efforts when it boils down to numbers of innocent victims who's lives were either saved or destroyed by these policies? I think that my cat shows more regard for life when she's catching mice in my backyard. And that is a non-partisan observation. I really like what Dennis Kucinich says, about war never being an option. It's too bad he doesn't stand a chance in the primaries, because he would have my vote.

[Socrates]

[quote name='mofca' post='1276158' date='May 17 2007, 08:25 PM']It is puzzling to me how one can support the death penalty and be pro life at the same time. In both cases, a human life is extinguished by another human being. Yes, abortions are innocent children as opposed to hardened criminals with the death penalty. My point has to do with the war. Tens of thousands of innocent people have died as a direct result of Bush's decision to go to war. Doesn't it seem like the Bush administration's foreign policy canceled out it's pro-life efforts when it boils down to numbers of innocent victims who's lives were either saved or destroyed by these policies? I think that my cat shows more regard for life when she's catching mice in my backyard. And that is a non-partisan observation. I really like what Dennis Kucinich says, about war never being an option. It's too bad he doesn't stand a chance in the primaries, because he would have my vote.[/quote]
The Church has always taught that the death penalty and war may be legitimately used by the state. Abortion, however, is always wrong. (Tired of repeating this on here - read up on it.)

[kamiller42]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1275652' date='May 17 2007, 07:48 AM']Mr. Bush was asked during an interview, upon his initial campaign for president, about texas deathrow and his response was, "I'm absolutely posetive that everyone that was put to death, was guilty" but that isn't the truth. Check the track record, there are numerous people that have been put to death in Texas, during Mr. Bush's watch that were innocent and proven to be innocent after their execution.[/quote]
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_individuals_executed_in_Texas"]Here's the list of the executed[/url]. Which case under George Bush's term are you referring to where the criminal was innocent?

It really doesn't matter if he thought they were all innocent and angels. The Texas governor cannot wave a magic wand and spring people free. Pardons have to go through the Board of Pardons and Paroles. Check the governor's FAQ, [url="http://www.governor.state.tx.us/divisions/press/faq/view"]question 12[/url].

[quote]Note: A capitol punishment trial is much more then that. It isn't "you and me" that sentence these individuals to death or not, in the case of Richard Cartwright, the individual that was guilty of the offense, had written a letter to his girlfriend [not richard's girlfriend, the man that had committed the murder]and admitted to the crime, but the judge refused to allow the letter be heard in court as evidence, and Richard was put to death, despite his daughter's [who was very young but knew what was going on] need for her father to be here on earth for her. Is that pro-life?
No doubt about that...[/quote]
It is more than you and me. A jury is only part of the process. It's important to have multiple layers of checks when someone is on trial for a capital offense. The Board of Pardons and Paroles is another that does not include "you and me."

I don't know the circumstances surrounding why the letter was not accepted as evidence. Maybe its authenticity couldn't be verified. Obviously there was enough counter evidence to pronounce him guilty. Even he admitted to not being guiltless. He initially denied being the murderer, but seem to have made statements to the victim's family before his execution admitting his culpability.

I have only stated what the governor's role in executions are in Texas. I have said nothing about whether the death penalty is pro-life or not. I do know the Magesterium does not put the death penalty on the exact same moral plane as abortion. The Catechism told me so.

Anyone who says George Bush is not pro-life is ignorant of the facts. Here are some accomplishments:
1. In July of 2002, Bush cut off all funding, approximately $34 million, for the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA).
2. Reinstated the Mexico City Policy which forbids U.S. foreign aid from going to any organization supporting abortion.
3. Signed the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act. (Thanks to his court placements, it was not struck down.)
4. Nominated, with the help of conservatives, good pro-life Supreme Court justices.
5. Signed the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, which gives legal rights to the unborn victims of violent acts.
6. Challenged the culture of death, specifically assisted suicide, by enforcing the Controlled Substances Act.
7. Led and encouraged the United Nations to place an international ban on cloning.
8. Supported Terry Schiavo.
9. Supported the Incapacitated Person's Legal Protection Act.
10. Increased the child tax credit from $500 to $1000.
11. Removed the marriage penalty tax.
12. Passed faith based initiatives by executive order.
13. Began a new marriage assistance program to be handled by the Department of Health & Human Services.
14. Significantly increased support and funding of abstinence programs. And he's taking a lot of heat for this. Kudos for sticking by it Mr. President.
15. Promised to sign the Interstate Abortion Bill, which forbids non-parents/guardians from taking minors across state lines to obtain abortions.
16. And more!

As I said, not perfect, but in these times, he did alright by me.

[Era Might]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1275849' date='May 17 2007, 03:09 PM']But I do not take into consideration his support of the death penalty because I fully support the death penalty and do not see that as a factor in "pro-life" or not.[/quote]
I disagree with this to an extent. I am speaking in general, not about George Bush. The pro-life message is ultimately greater than abortion and similar crimes. The Church does not rule out the possibility of war and capital punishment, but she also expects us to approach them in a way that is consistent with our pro-life conviction. This is similar to how NFP is not contraceptive in itself, but can become contraceptive if approached that way. The entire culture of contraception is not a pro-life culture, even though contraception does not always take a life; it contributes to the erosion of respect for life, and leads to abortion. Pope John Paul II discusses life [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/2003/january/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20030113_diplomatic-corps_en.html"][u]here[/u][/url] (this is for everyone else, I know we differ on the source):

[quote]First, a "YES TO LIFE"! Respect life itself and individual lives: everything starts here, for the most fundamental of human rights is certainly the right to life. Abortion, euthanasia, human cloning, for example, risk reducing the human person to a mere object: life and death to order, as it were! When all moral criteria are removed, scientific research involving the sources of life becomes a denial of the being and the dignity of the person. War itself is an attack on human life since it brings in its wake suffering and death. [b]The battle for peace is always a battle for life![/b][/quote]
The determination to avoid war, and every kind of unnatural death, is very much a pro-life cause. This is why the Church has insisted that capital punishment should not be used except in self-defense, because it leads to a loss of respect for life. It is self-evident that human beings slaughtering other human beings in war is savage and incomprehensible, and that is why we only do so in self-defense as an absolute last resort, when we have been overcome by the power of death in this world.

[Didymus]

honestly, how can war [i]never[/i] be an option with Bin Laden wanting to cause us harm whether we hunt for him or not, whether we topple evil regimes or not?

[HS_Dad]

Way to go kamiller42!!!

Those who attack Bush as not being pro-life suffer two flaws:

(1) They make the perfect the enemy of the good. (Name a more pro-life President since Roe v. Wade.)

(2) They don't believe all people are created equal, for if they did they would way abortion far more
heavily than the rare uses of the death penalty or the relatively small number of deaths in Iraq.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='kamiller42' post='1276229' date='May 17 2007, 08:39 PM'][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_individuals_executed_in_Texas"]Here's the list of the executed[/url]. Which case under George Bush's term are you referring to where the criminal was innocent?[/quote]

I gave you an example, Richard Cartwright.

[quote]It really doesn't matter if he thought they were all innocent and angels. The Texas governor cannot wave a magic wand and spring people free. Pardons have to go through the Board of Pardons and Paroles.[/quote]No they don't, the governor has the ability to pardon whomever he desires. If you check the case of tookie Williams [California case], Gov. Schwarzenegger held a press conference and said that it was the most difficult decision of his career [to allow Williams to be executed].

[quote]I don't know the circumstances surrounding why the letter was not accepted as evidence. Maybe its authenticity couldn't be verified. Obviously there was enough counter evidence to pronounce him guilty. Even he admitted to not being guiltless. He initially denied being the murderer, but seem to have made statements to the victim's family before his execution admitting his culpability.[/quote] The letter could be more varified then those that testified against him [that were also guilty]. If you saw the actual evidence, studied the case [which I have, a friend of mine knew him personally], then you'd see that he was innocent. His letter to the family of the victim didn't confess that he was the one directly responsible for the murder, it only proved that he was with the individuals that committed the crime [who are free today, by the way]. If you want to know more, read his blogs on Texas Deathrow uncensored.

Let me give you the names of others that have been found innocent on death row. Here's a list of people that were found innocent before their executions: [url="http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=6&did=109"]http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.ph...d=6&did=109[/url]

If you take a look at the situation of the trial of Calvin Burdine, specifically, you'll see that his lawyer fell asleep in court [literally] and thou a "public defender" didn't do his job. Should a man like that be put to death, because his lawyer didn't properly defend him, was it a fair trial?

Here's a link to wrongful convictions: [url="http://www.law.northwestern.edu/wrongfulconvictions/"]http://www.law.northwestern.edu/wrongfulconvictions/[/url]

Here's another link to an innocent man that were executed on Texas Deathrow: [url="http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/anderson.cooper.360/blog/2007/04/was-innocent-man-executed-in-texas.html"]http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/anderson.c...d-in-texas.html[/url]

Here's a link to a Chicogo Tribune article regarding an innocent individual put to death: [url="http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/na/chi-0412090169dec09,1,2000542.story?coll=chi-newsspecials-hed"]http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationw...ewsspecials-hed[/url]

There's so many more too that have been executed for crimes that they havn't committed. I stand behind the position that we should be above this morally and I believe that I remember the Pope himself saying that since we have the ability to house these individuals and keep them from hurting us, that executing them was wrong.

[quote]While the vast majority of U.S. Catholics support capital punishment, Pope John Paul II has declared the Church's near total opposition to the death penalty. In his encyclical "Evangelium Vitae" (The Gospel of Life) issued March 25, 1995 after four years of consultations with the world's Roman Catholic bishops, John Paul II wrote that execution is only appropriate "in cases of absolute necessity, in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society.[/quote]

Reza

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1276271' date='May 18 2007, 12:10 AM']I gave you an example, Richard Cartwright.[/quote]What year was Richard Cartwright executed? When did Bush hold the office of Governor of Texas?

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1276336' date='May 17 2007, 11:20 PM']What year was Richard Cartwright executed? When did Bush hold the office of Governor of Texas?[/quote]

You got me there, Richard Chartwright was under a different gov at the time of execution but was on Texas Deathrow during the time that Mr. Bush was gov, so let me give you another example... so take into account James Clayton. After his death, FBI Lab reports [that the courts chose to withhold and you can still view online today], Instititute of forensic science's report, among other evidence proves this man's innocence. If you check the links above, some of the men that Mr. Bush had condemned to death, were found to be innocent [one I think a day before he was supposed to be executed, by an independant law firm].

Mr. Bush wouldn't even listen to His Holiness Pope John Paul II in the case of Karla Faye Tucker!