Grave Reasons For Nfp

[Budge]

So infertile people and widows past menopause shouldnt marry?

Edited May 27, 2007 by Budge

[Katholikos]

[b]Aloysius wrote:[/b]
[quote]there have been Orthodox bishops who have taken a stand against contraception; but it's not a united voice on the issue and the majority of them do not.[/quote]How confusing for the Orthodox laity! Is contraception a sin, or not? The Orthodox Churches all taught it was a sin in the past (before 1930 when the entire non-Catholic world caved in on the issue). The Orthodox need the Pope in order to preserve their orthodoxy.

[quote]
Likos's statement was slightly flawed. It should read:

To marry and intend not to have children invalidates the marriage.[/quote]
Thanks, Aloysius! Couldn't have said it better myself.

Likos

[cathoholic_anonymous]

No, Budge. That is not what the sentence says. Infertile people don't [i]intend[/i] to be infertile. They don't choose that condition for themselves in the same way that a couple using birth control chooses to hamper the procreative quality of sex. As their intention is to live the married life in all its fullness, they can and should get married - and who knows? Their infertility may be healed. In many cases it is treatable by medicine and it has been known to have been cured through prayer. Farglefeezlebut, a newish member of Phatmass who is one of my best friends in real life, is the eldest child of a woman who was told by the doctors that she would never be able to conceive. FFB's parents prayed for children - and they were given six of them. God is generous.

Regarding the element of sacrifice that NFP involves, I think the people here should read Rabbi Shmuley Boteach's book [i]Kosher Sex[/i]. I read it as part of a course on Judaism. Orthodox Jews, together with a sprinkling of Jewish people from other streams, observe a monthly period of abstinence as well, albeit for different reasons. In [i]Kosher Sex[/i], Rabbi Boteach describes the benefits that this can bring to a married couple. His argument is that while sex is a beautiful and God-given way of expressing your love for another person, it's not the [i]only[/i] way, and that a monthly period of abstinence allows the couple to explore their relationship and enjoy each other's company in the context of an especially close and intimate friendship - something that is equally valuable to the marriage. All this helps to keep the couple's marriage in balance, preventing physical passion from either becoming too dominant or losing its zest.

This wisdom can and should be applied to NFP. Too often it is treated as a restriction rather than as an appropriate way of nurturing a healthy sexuality. I agree that it shouldn't be used as a kind of 'organic' birth control. But if you view the time of abstinence in the way that Boteach advocates, it can become a prayerful expression of thanksgiving for what God has given you. Thanksgiving leads to trust. And as this trust develops, surely it should become clear to you if you're trying to restrain yourself from having children for the wrong reasons. You learn the right thing through praying, and NFP can be a prayer.

I cringe at the religious education that I was given in this area - it was pitifully inadequate. At one time I was the kind of cafeteria Catholic who sees nothing wrong with birth control. It was only when I was studying Judaism, aged eighteen, and began to read Jewish perspectives on sex and sexuality that I thought, "Hold on a minute. Perhaps this is the essence of it." That's when I understood the wisdom of Catholic teaching on this topic for the first time.

[Aloysius]

they can "not intend to have children" if they are infertile. a generous and good Christian couple, however, would probably choose to adopt because their total love of the other would produce the desire to extend that love in the context of a family.

but no one can "intend not to have children" when they marry.

the former says that they do not have the intent; the latter says that they have a specific intent NOT to. huge difference. critical reading is an important skill.

say by some miracle of God an infertile couple was given a child. the former sentence would say that they had just had no intent to do that because they thought it was impossible, but they would be overjoyed at the miracle God gave them. if they fit into the latter and had a specific intent to never have children, then they would probably be upset by such a miracle cause they wanted to not have children.

it's important not to create a selfish system of codependency within a relationship or a marriage wherein the man loves the woman and the woman loves the man and for this reason they shut off anyone else from "love"; true love in a Christian marriage will by nature flow over into the desire to share that love in the natural expression of it: children. even infertile couples have this love, which is why they have great sadness when they are unable to have children; the best thing for such couples to do is to adopt, their marital intimacy will then be referential to their parenthood insomuch as it strengthens their bond thus making them better parents.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1282089' date='May 27 2007, 10:51 AM']there have been Orthodox bishops who have taken a stand against contraception; but it's not a united voice on the issue and the majority of them do not.[/quote]
Aloysius,

Katholikos' comment was that Orthodox bishops (and by extension Churches) support the use of abortifacient contraceptives, which is false, and that is why I quoted the official declaration of the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church. In fact, I know of no Orthodox jurisdiction that supports the use of abortifacient contraceptives.

As far as non-abortifacient contraceptives are concerned, the Russian Orthodox Holy Synod condemns those methods as well, and encourages the use of periodic continence instead.

Finally, it is true that there are Orthodox bishops (and laity), mainly living in the United States, Canada, and Western Europe, who remain quiet about the use of non-abortifacient contraceptives, and this of course is lamentable. Nevertheless, I would attribute this behavior to the liberal attitudes that prevail within Western society in connection with married life and sexual activity in general. Moreover, I would also point out that there are Catholic bishops who remain silent on this issue too, and -- of course -- as sad as it is to say, the vast majority of Catholic "faithful" in Western countries ignore the Church's teaching on artificial contraception (i.e., if they have ever even heard it preached from a Catholic pulpit), and use various forms of artificial birth control, including methods that are clearly abortifacient (e.g., the [i]pill[/i]).

[Aloysius]

The Orthodox Churches aren't really far gone on this issue, at least they're not more far-gone than us.

[Apotheoun]

The problems faced by the Orthodox Churches in the United States, Canada, and Western Europe, are more or less identical to those faced by the Catholic Church in those same regions. Apathy and ignorance.

[Oik]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1282175' date='May 27 2007, 02:51 PM']...it is true that there are Orthodox bishops (and laity), mainly living in the United States, Canada, and Western Europe, who remain quiet about the use of non-abortifacient contraceptives, and this of course is lamentable. Nevertheless, I would attribute this behavior to the liberal attitudes that prevail within Western society in connection with married life and sexual activity in general. Moreover, I would also point out that there are Catholic bishops who remain silent on this issue too, and -- of course -- as sad as it is to say, the vast majority of Catholic "faithful" in Western countries ignore the Church's teaching on artificial contraception (i.e., if they have ever even heard it preached from a Catholic pulpit), and use various forms of artificial birth control, including methods that are clearly abortifacient (e.g., the [i]pill[/i]).[/quote]

Spot on!
An very eloquent clarification of my insufficient post!

God grant you and you family many years!

[Katholikos]

The Orthodox Church
Timothy Ware (Bishop Kallistos of Diokleia)
First Edition, first printing
1963
(pg. 302)

"Artificial methods of birth control are forbidden in the Orthodox Church."


The Orthodox Church
Timothy Ware (Bishop Kallistos of Diokleia)
First Edition, revised 1984
(pg. 302)

"The use of contraceptives and other devices for birth control is on the whole strongly discouraged in the Orthodox Church. Some bishops and theologians altogether condemn the employment of such methods. Others, however, have recently begun to adopt a less strict position, and urge that the question is best left to the discretion of each individual couple, in consultation with the spiritual father."


The Orthodox Church
New Edition
Timothy Ware (Bishop Kallistos of Diokleia)
Penguin Books, 1997
(Pg. 296)

"Concerning contraceptives and other forms of birth control, differing opinions exist within the Orthodox Church. In the past birth control was in general strongly condemned, but today a less strict view is coming to prevail, not only in the west but in traditional Orthodox countries. Many Orthodox theologians and spiritual fathers consider that the responsible use of contraception within marriage is not in itself sinful. In their view, the question of how many children a couple should have, and at what intervals, is best decided by the partners themselves, according to the guidance of their own consciences"

Likos

[Norseman82]

I think part of the problem is that the Church never [i]formally[/i] declared what those "grave" or "serious" reasons were, and since "nature abhors a vacuum", we have everyone stepping in to offer their own interpretations, and in the past this has resulted in heated arguments and frayed emotions leading to the "reasons for NFP" threads to be among the most heated on this board.

[Paddington]

The hardest thing about it for me is that on this issue, it is the poor person who has trouble entering the kingdom of God.

If anybody wants to contradict me, then please think first about the Catholic Church's stance alongside "it is better to marry than to burn."

I will offer my own contradiction that poor people are less burdened by wealth to "see spiritually" on things including this issue.
But, if they are seeing spiritually then they would see that it is probably good for them to marry in many ways and yet irresponsible to marry.

Edited May 27, 2007 by Paddington

[Apotheoun]

My parents were poor (i.e., in the material sense), but they were rich spiritually.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1282316' date='May 27 2007, 06:58 PM']The hardest thing about it for me is that on this issue, it is the poor person who has trouble entering the kingdom of God.

If anybody wants to contradict me, then please think first about the Catholic Church's stance alongside "it is better to marry than to burn."[/quote]

Paddington, that wording is from the KJV translation, which contains many errors. Here's 1 Corinthians 7:9 from the RSV: "For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion."

Likos

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1282302' date='May 27 2007, 04:35 PM'][u]The Orthodox Church[/u], by Timothy Ware (Bishop Kallistos of Diokleia). First Edition, first printing 1963 (pg. 302).

"Artificial methods of birth control are forbidden in the Orthodox Church."

[u]The Orthodox Church[/u], by Timothy Ware (Bishop Kallistos of Diokleia). First Edition, revised 1984 (pg. 302).

"The use of contraceptives and other devices for birth control is on the whole strongly discouraged in the Orthodox Church. Some bishops and theologians altogether condemn the employment of such methods. Others, however, have recently begun to adopt a less strict position, and urge that the question is best left to the discretion of each individual couple, in consultation with the spiritual father."

[u]The Orthodox Church[/u], by Timothy Ware (Bishop Kallistos of Diokleia). Penguin Books, 1997 (Pg. 296).

"Concerning contraceptives and other forms of birth control, differing opinions exist within the Orthodox Church. In the past birth control was in general strongly condemned, but today a less strict view is coming to prevail, not only in the west but in traditional Orthodox countries. Many Orthodox theologians and spiritual fathers consider that the responsible use of contraception within marriage is not in itself sinful. In their view, the question of how many children a couple should have, and at what intervals, is best decided by the partners themselves, according to the guidance of their own consciences"

Likos[/quote]
Likos,

Thank you for illustrating the point that I made in my earlier posts, i.e., that there are individual Orthodox bishops in the United States and Western Europe who support certain forms of contraception. Bishop Ware's views are not the views of the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church, nor are they a true representation of the official position of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. That said, I feel compelled to point out that there are individual Catholic bishops who also dissent from Catholic teaching, either by their silence or by actively teaching moral error. A case in point was Archbishop Hunthausen of Seattle, who held that homosexual acts were not intrinsically immoral, and who also supported the use of condoms, and he -- of course -- is but one example of the many that could be listed.

Now, as I said before, I know of no official declaration from an Orthodox jurisdiction (i.e., a synod and patriarch) that supports contraception as a valid means for regulating births in marriage. That said, I will conclude with a comment made by Russian Orthodox Archbishop Hilarion Alfeyev of Vienna, who -- after the election of Cardinal Ratzinger as Pope -- proposed an alliance between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches in defense of moral truth, because as he put it:

[quote]"By defending life, marriage and procreation, by struggling against legalization of contraception, abortion and euthanasia, against recognition of homosexual unions as equal to marital ones, against libertinage in all forms, Catholics and Orthodox are engaged in a battle for survival of the European civilization, of European peoples, of Europe as such. Let us unite our efforts and form a common front of traditional Christianity in order to protect Europe from being irrevocably devoured by secularism, liberalism and relativism."[/quote]
The Orthodox Churches do not support the modern hedonistic agenda of Western culture, and as Catholics (both Roman and Byzantine) we should be careful not to attack the Orthodox Churches when we hear about individual Orthodox bishops (or priests) who have caved in to the moral relativism that presently holds ascendency in the West, because there are Catholic bishops (and priests) who have done the same thing.

God bless,
Todd

[Paddington]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1282581' date='May 28 2007, 02:34 PM']Paddington, that wording is from the KJV translation, which contains many errors. Here's 1 Corinthians 7:9 from the RSV: "For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion."

Likos[/quote]

That's exactly how I was understanding "burn."