cathoholic_anonymous Posted May 14, 2007 Share Posted May 14, 2007 Could anybody here give me an explanation (in layman's terms) about how Jesus could be both fully human and fully divine? I'm trying to explain it to someone who does not understand and my explanation isn't up to scratch. At first it was too complicated, but when I tried to pare it down for their understanding I feel I lost meaning. A good description would be most welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theologian in Training Posted May 14, 2007 Share Posted May 14, 2007 (edited) [quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1272868' date='May 14 2007, 08:54 AM']Could anybody here give me an explanation (in layman's terms) about how Jesus could be both fully human and fully divine? I'm trying to explain it to someone who does not understand and my explanation isn't up to scratch. At first it was too complicated, but when I tried to pare it down for their understanding I feel I lost meaning. A good description would be most welcome.[/quote] Jesus is/was/ and always will be fully human and fully divine....both God and man at the same time, never one or the other, never just man or just God, but fully both, at the same time... I don't think there is any other way of explaining it... You could also meditate on the Athanasian Creed and try taking bits and pieces of that as an explanation as well [url="http://www.creeds.net/ancient/Quicumque.html"]http://www.creeds.net/ancient/Quicumque.html[/url] Edited May 14, 2007 by Theologian in Training Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Church Punk Posted May 14, 2007 Share Posted May 14, 2007 Christ being fully human and fully divine is initially difficult to fathom; however under some review it is very probable and acceptable. I think a good way to tackle this one is to consider Christ as a person, that is a human person and the 2nd person of the Trinity, these are his 2 natures just as all humans have more than one nature. For instance are you are you considered human if you have a body?... Yes is that your only nature? Well no we also have a soul. So we have a body and soul that are 2 different natures one in the physical and one in the spirit. Now possessing both body and soul, does that make you 2 different persons? Well no, I am 1 person with a body and soul. So the same can be said about Christ. Only his soul is that of the Father (and the Holy Spirit). As He says I and the Father are one! That is they share the same spirit they are the same in one with different natures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scardella Posted May 14, 2007 Share Posted May 14, 2007 (edited) Is there a particular difficulty? God willed that the 2nd Person of the Trinity become man, and so it was (with Mary's consent). God, not content with merely adding the appearance of human, added the fullness of humanity to the Son to become Jesus as we know Him. I suppose the difficulty might be in explaining the "1 person, 2 natures" part. The person Jesus Christ is fully divine (having divine substance and will) and fully human (soul/will and body). So, yes, Jesus has 2 intellects and 2 wills that are in perfect unity. That's the difficult part to really wrap your mind around (if you really can). How can one person have two wills? It would seem to be some sort of Jekyll and Hyde thing... BTW, please someone correct me if I'm wrong. Edited May 14, 2007 by scardella Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted May 14, 2007 Share Posted May 14, 2007 Jesus Christ: Who is He? The Son of God, and Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. What is He? God and man, two natures Divine and human, Mystically united in the One Person. A mystery beyond complete human understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 (edited) I am not a theological scholar but I have found the Summa Theologica by Aquinas to be most helpful in this kind of query. It can be found online [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4003.htm"]here[/url] There are several sections on the nature of the Son being both divine and human, and these are just some of the replies... "As was said above (2, 1), the human nature constitutes a Divine Person, not simply, but forasmuch as the Person is denominated from such a nature. For human nature does not make the Son of Man to be simply, since He was from eternity, but only to be man. It is by the Divine Nature that a Divine Person is constituted simply. Hence the Divine Person is not said to assume the Divine Nature, but to assume the human nature. " "As was said above (1), in the word assumption two things are signified--to wit, the principle and the term of the action. Now to be the principle of the assumption belongs to the Divine Nature in itself, because the assumption took place by Its power; but to be the term of the assumption does not belong to the Divine Nature in itself, but by reason of the Person in Whom It is considered to be. Hence a Person is primarily and more properly said to assume, but it may be said secondarily that the Nature assumed a nature to Its Person. And after the same manner the Nature is also said to be incarnate, not that it is changed to flesh, but that it assumed the nature of flesh. Hence Damascene says (De Fide Orth. iii, 6): "Following the blessed Athanasius and Cyril we say that the Nature of God is incarnate." "I answer that, As was said above (1), assumption implies two things, viz. the act of assuming and the term of assumption. Now the act of assumption proceeds from the Divine power, which is common to the three Persons, but the term of the assumption is a Person, as stated above (2). Hence what has to do with action in the assumption is common to the three Persons; but what pertains to the nature of term belongs to one Person in such a manner as not to belong to another; [u][b]for the three Persons caused the human nature to be united to the one Person of the Son."[/b][/u] Edited May 17, 2007 by nunsense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennypacker11 Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 (edited) [quote name='Church Punk' post='1272947' date='May 14 2007, 09:11 AM']Christ being fully human and fully divine is initially difficult to fathom; however under some review it is very probable and acceptable. I think a good way to tackle this one is to consider Christ as a person, that is a human person and the 2nd person of the Trinity, these are his 2 natures just as all humans have more than one nature. For instance are you are you considered human if you have a body?... Yes is that your only nature? Well no we also have a soul. So we have a body and soul that are 2 different natures one in the physical and one in the spirit. Now possessing both body and soul, does that make you 2 different persons? Well no, I am 1 person with a body and soul. So the same can be said about Christ. Only his soul is that of the Father (and the Holy Spirit). As He says I and the Father are one! That is they share the same spirit they are the same in one with different natures.[/quote] Saying that Christ's soul is his divine nature (the 'spirit' he shares with the Father) is a form of Apollinarianism. Christ is not composed of a human body with a divine soul/mind. Rather, the Divine Word, with no loss to his divine nature, assume a full human nature (body, soul, mind, will). By far the best explanation for the union of the two natures that I have ever read are in St. Thomas's [i]Summa Theologiae[/i]. [i]ST[/i] III.1-6 provide the theoretical foundation for his understanding of the hypostatic union, but I think that q.18, a.1 and q.19, a.1 on Christ's wills and operations provide the best images and analogies for our understanding. All these analogies are inherently limited (either leaning towards Nestorianism or Monophysitism/Apollinarianism), but they are helpful nonetheless. Edited May 18, 2007 by Pennypacker11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggamafu Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 [quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1272945' date='May 14 2007, 09:04 AM']Jesus is/was/ and always will be fully human and fully divine....both God and man at the same time, never one or the other, never just man or just God, but fully both, at the same time... I don't think there is any other way of explaining it... You could also meditate on the Athanasian Creed and try taking bits and pieces of that as an explanation as well [url="http://www.creeds.net/ancient/Quicumque.html"]http://www.creeds.net/ancient/Quicumque.html[/url][/quote] Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Christ only became human in time; therefore he was always fully God, but not always fully man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted May 21, 2007 Share Posted May 21, 2007 [quote name='Church Punk' post='1272947' date='May 14 2007, 09:11 AM']Christ being fully human and fully divine is initially difficult to fathom; however under some review it is very probable and acceptable. I think a good way to tackle this one is to consider Christ as a person, that is a human person and the 2nd person of the Trinity, these are his 2 natures just as all humans have more than one nature. For instance are you are you considered human if you have a body?... Yes is that your only nature? Well no we also have a soul. So we have a body and soul that are 2 different natures one in the physical and one in the spirit. Now possessing both body and soul, does that make you 2 different persons? Well no, I am 1 person with a body and soul. So the same can be said about Christ. Only his soul is that of the Father (and the Holy Spirit). As He says I and the Father are one! That is they share the same spirit they are the same in one with different natures.[/quote] Actually, your "explanation" is a heresy condemned by the Church (forget the name of the heresy though, perhaps one of the Church Scholars here can help me out . . .) Human beings do not have two natures, but one human nature. Body and soul are not two different natures, but components of the human person. Jesus Christ is not made of a Divine Soul and a human body, but is both True God and True Man: He took on a human nature with a human body and soul in the Incarnation, yet retains His Divine Nature as the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. The Incarnation is a Mystery of the Faith we human beings cannot fully understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathoholic_anonymous Posted May 21, 2007 Author Share Posted May 21, 2007 This is what I mean. There are so many contradictory answers about this that I have difficulty getting my ideas sorted in my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jswranch Posted May 21, 2007 Share Posted May 21, 2007 [quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1278472' date='May 21 2007, 10:25 AM']This is what I mean. There are so many contradictory answers about this that I have difficulty getting my ideas sorted in my head. [/quote] Get the answer from the horse's mouth: Read the catechism and the church councils for yourself. Another rule of thumb: when two Catholics disagree on church teaching, have them site their source from Ecumenical Councils or papal documents (including magisterium documents) to know the authoritative answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theologian in Training Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 (edited) [quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1276590' date='May 18 2007, 01:56 PM']Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Christ only became human in time; therefore he was always fully God, but not always fully man.[/quote] I thought that was a given, and was really speaking after the Incarnation, because I do know that there was a point when He was not human, but now that is not the case. Edited May 22, 2007 by Theologian in Training Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphabeta Posted May 23, 2007 Share Posted May 23, 2007 [quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1276590' date='May 18 2007, 07:56 PM']Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Christ only became human in time; therefore he was always fully God, but not always fully man.[/quote] [quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1279347' date='May 23 2007, 12:56 AM']I thought that was a given, and was really speaking after the Incarnation, because I do know that there was a point when He was not human, but now that is not the case.[/quote] He is the Son and the Word of God from eternity, but he was not Jesus Christ until the Incarnation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphabeta Posted May 23, 2007 Share Posted May 23, 2007 I don't think anyone can really explain the 'how' of the Incarnation except by trying to explain how not to conceive of it. Namely, Christ's human and divine natures are not somehow blended; He is not like a zombie possessed by God without a real human mind, emotions, etc.; He is not something between God and man (a [i]tertium quid[/i]) but fully both; He is really God and not just somehow 'closer to God' than the rest of us. The two natures are so closely united that it's possible to say, when talking about Jesus, 'God was tired and sat down' or 'A man forgives sins.' I.e. he is 'one and the same' and not in some way two separate persons hitched together. But the mystery remains a mystery, just as much as the Trinity, only here it's two natures and one person instead of three persons and one substance. The Church Fathers had to define the dogma in the first place because if Jesus had been what the different heresies claimed--either not fully God or not fully man, or not fully either one--He could not truly have mediated between us and God, making us sharers in God's life, and salvation as Christians understand it would not have been possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 [quote name='Alphabeta' post='1279827' date='May 23 2007, 10:27 AM']He is the Son and the Word of God from eternity, but he was not Jesus Christ until the Incarnation.[/quote] Yes, you are correct. Nevertheless, the incarnation can be talked about proleptically; and moreover, there is also a sense in which the humanity assumed by the eternal Logos is taken up into the divine eternity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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