Help With Information On An Icon

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1272385' date='May 13 2007, 11:03 AM']It looks like an icon of the Virgin Theotokos [i]Unfading Rose[/i], and -- in my opinion -- this is confirmed by the blown up portion of the text, which appears to say: "[[font="Symbol"]r[/font]][font="Symbol"]odon to amaranton[/font]" (i.e., [i]Unfading Rose[/i]) in Greek."[/quote]
yes, if there is a rho before that then it would be Unfading Rose.

without the rho, I thought it might say "perpetual (or unfading) way, ie the word for what John the Baptized prepared for the Lord

"οδον hodon-- a road; by implication, a progress (the route, act or distance); figuratively, a mode or means -- journey, (high-)way."

I figured if the rest could be translated it might specify, 'unfading way of salvation' or something like that... the rest of the text would make clear

it doesn't appear from the picture that there is any noticable scratch before this word, are you sure it does not mean this, Apotheoun?

[KnightofChrist]

There appears to be more text on the other side of the Icon at the bottom, could you take another picture of that part?
The bad thing is flash photography is bad for old paintings, and the sun as well since both fade out paintings. If there is enough light in the room and you have a tripod or even a sturdy table, you wouldn't need the flash, if it is possible to turn it off. Its tricky to do that if the camera moves as the photo is being taken it is worthless, but if not it could be better since it would lake the glare of the flash.


PS if the camera has a time delay on it that would be prefect if you do not have a tripod. I wish I could tell you how to set the shutter settings, the longer the shutter is open the more detailed the photo will become, even in some cases seeing things the human misses.

Edited May 13, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[Apotheoun]

If you look at the word "[[font="Symbol"]r[/font]][font="Symbol"]odon[/font]" and then look at the opening words on each of the other lines of the text, "[[font="Symbol"]r[/font]][font="Symbol"]odon[/font]" does not line up with the decorative border in the same way that the opening words on the other lines do. Thus, it looks to me as if a letter (i.e., the Greek "rho") is missing. Moreover, I know of no icon called the "[font="Symbol"]odon to amaranton[/font]" (i.e., [i]Way of Salvation[/i]), but there is an icon entitled "[font="Symbol"]rodon to amaranton[/font]" (i.e., [i]Unfading Rose[/i]).

There are a few other words that hint at this being an icon of the [i]Unfading Rose[/i]; for example: the third line of the text begins with the word "[font="Symbol"]osfradion[/font]," which means "strong smell" or perhaps "fragrance," and I believe the two words following "[font="Symbol"]osfradion[/font]" are "[font="Symbol"]tou pantwn[/font]," and the phrase "[font="Symbol"]osfradion tou pantwn[/font]" is found in Akathists to the Theotokos, who is called "the Unfading Rose" in many Byzantine hymns.

Nevertheless, I am not an expert on icons ([i]my interest is in iconic theology[/i]), nor is my understanding of the Greek language all that good, and -- of course -- that is why I suggested that he post his pictures at the Byzantine Forum.

God bless,
Todd

P.S. - There are also stylistic qualities that hint at this being an icon of the [i]Unfading Rose[/i], including the fact that Christ is standing (not sitting, nor is He being cradled in the arms of the Theotokos) and He is holding an orb, just to name a few things.

[Era Might]

Since you're translating, any idea what these mean:

XEIP MIXHA MONAXO

IC XC

MP OY

I assume the IC XC and MP OY mean Jesus and Mary. The other writing is written very small in the corner of my icon.

[Aloysius]

it's possible. it'd have to be a pretty clean scrape not to have scraped off part of the background; maybe there's something covering it.

none of the words are "salvation", I was just conjecturing. that part of the phrase seems to say, without the rho, "The perpetual way" and I assumed the rest, which I could not decipher or translate, might continue with that phrase. There's nothing about that first line that means it will be the title of Our Lady there,

[Aloysius]

Era,

XEIP MIXHA MONAXO
χηιρ Μιχα Μόναχο
The hand of Micha of Monaco?

[philosophette]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1272575' date='May 13 2007, 06:33 PM']Era,

XEIP MIXHA MONAXO
χηιρ Μιχα Μόναχο
The hand of Micha of Monaco?[/quote]

It should probably say "By the hand of...."
That is unusual that an icon should be signed by the person who wrote it. Is it a more modern/recent icon?

That is really cool that you can read Greek, Al!

Edited May 14, 2007 by philosobrat

[Era Might]

I checked the information on the back and it says it is a reproduction of an ancient icon. I thought it was a photographic reproduction, but it sounds like it was painted by someone exactly as the ancient icon was. It looks like it says 1984 in the corner as well, so maybe that's when they painted it.

Maybe it was Micha from Monaco who painted it.

[Aloysius]

icons have always been reproduced in this fashion; they are written as exact copies, from what I understand, again and again. the iconographer is not supposed to introduce any innovation, but merely pass on the icon as it has been received; much the way the magisterium herself is to do nothing but pass on what she has received.

[N/A Gone]

I have 30something pictures on my facebook

[url="http://crossroadscollege.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2000553&id=107600017"]http://crossroadscollege.facebook.com/albu...mp;id=107600017[/url]


[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1272395' date='May 13 2007, 10:53 AM']Revprodeji,

You may want to post your pictures at the [b]Byzantine Forum[/b] in order to confirm the identification of the icon and to get more details about its history. Moreover, someone there may also be able to tell you whether you should get it restored or not, and how to go about doing it properly.
God bless,
Todd
P.S. - Icons are filled with divine energy and are meant to be venerated.[/quote]

Thanks Todd, like always you are a great help. Could you either give me a link, or go ahead and ask for me?

[quote name='The Joey-O' post='1272411' date='May 13 2007, 12:32 PM']I could forward the pics to Father Joncas. He taught us some basics of how to identify icons, but it was just one small part in a very big, complicated task. He seems to be knowledgeable in the area. Plus, he's got a bunch of cool old icons in his house.

-JoeyO.[/quote]

thanks fluff...would you please?

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1272470' date='May 13 2007, 03:39 PM']There appears to be more text on the other side of the Icon at the bottom, could you take another picture of that part?
The bad thing is flash photography is bad for old paintings, and the sun as well since both fade out paintings. If there is enough light in the room and you have a tripod or even a sturdy table, you wouldn't need the flash, if it is possible to turn it off. Its tricky to do that if the camera moves as the photo is being taken it is worthless, but if not it could be better since it would lake the glare of the flash.
PS if the camera has a time delay on it that would be prefect if you do not have a tripod. I wish I could tell you how to set the shutter settings, the longer the shutter is open the more detailed the photo will become, even in some cases seeing things the human misses.[/quote]

We left our tripod in mN. The best bet would be the facebook link.

[quote name='Era Might' post='1272696' date='May 13 2007, 08:47 PM']I checked the information on the back and it says it is a reproduction of an ancient icon. I thought it was a photographic reproduction, but it sounds like it was painted by someone exactly as the ancient icon was. It looks like it says 1984 in the corner as well, so maybe that's when they painted it.

Maybe it was Micha from Monaco who painted it. [/quote]

The beginning part is 18, not 19. Could be 1814, or 1811 or 1834.

It is painted directly on wood. The gold actually appears to come off the page. it is not a photograph.

What information did you look at Era? Just based on the condition of the wood and the Icon itself it is far more than 20 years old.

thanks guys. More info the better.

[N/A Gone]

What do the words at the top mean?

[Era Might]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1272776' date='May 13 2007, 11:08 PM']What information did you look at Era? Just based on the condition of the wood and the Icon itself it is far more than 20 years old.[/quote]
Nah, I was talking about a different icon, one I have.

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1271961' date='May 12 2007, 02:28 PM']Ha I only saw the year after tweaking the image. But now I'm more unsure that 1831 could be a year, I recall 1831? or something similar on a medal of Our Lady I had. Anyway This maybe better...
[img]http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e34/TheVoodookilla/revp2.jpg[/img][/quote]

[url="http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/miraculous-medal.htm"]http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/miraculous-medal.htm[/url]


[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1272473' date='May 13 2007, 03:47 PM']Nevertheless, I am not an expert on icons ([i]my interest is in iconic theology[/i]), nor is my understanding of the Greek language all that good, and -- of course -- that is why I suggested that he post his pictures at the Byzantine Forum.

God bless,
Todd

P.S. - There are also stylistic qualities that hint at this being an icon of the [i]Unfading Rose[/i], including the fact that Christ is standing (not sitting, nor is He being cradled in the arms of the Theotokos) and He is holding an orb, just to name a few things.[/quote]

I did some google searches and could not find the same exact picture of mine. Based on its texture and how aged the wood is I doubt it is a replica. (at least not a new one) Todd, what is your email address. I had a specific question I wanted to ask you and the PM was full.

If anything, i am in San Jose right now. How far are you? (i believe you live in North CA) I would be willing to make a road trip if you wanna see it in person.

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1272780' date='May 13 2007, 11:11 PM']Nah, I was talking about a different icon, one I have.[/quote]

the only thing on the back of mine is that hook thing, and the very old wood.

I love the thing. Im reading up on Icons right now.

[N/A Gone]

Any more thoughts?