The Protestant Intentional Overlooking The Words Of Our Lord.

[thessalonian]

Paddington,

First a couple of clarifications about things that bother me in your article.

1) I find that phrase "one true Church" causes some confusion. It is not theologically unsound per se but gives the impression that that Church has all the truth to the exclusion of others having any truth. Or at least truth of value, i.e. all those visibly outside of it are damned. Something the CC does not and I will contend never has taught. I don't find the phrase "One true Church" used very often in the writings of Popes, councils, and Fathers of the Church. I don't think it is a phrase that helps the efforts in uniting Christianity. The better phrase is "the fullness of the truth". All of Christianity contains varying amounts of the teachings of Jesus Christ, who himself is the fullness of the truth. I find it impossible to believe that the fullness of the truth has not been passed along in one Church, especially when the scriptures tell us "you shall KNOW THE TRUTH and the TRUTH shall set you free". Salvation depends on truth and the truth is knowable.

2) The article implies and I think even stated that "outside the Catholic Church there is no salvatoin". Once again theologically this is correct but the dogma is actually "Outside the Church there is no salvatoin". Again the previous phrase is not used in Church documents, papal documents, or the Fathers much, where the latter is. The later recognizes invincible ignorance and that one may not be culpable for the errors he holds. It also recognizes the spiritual bond of truth, that there is both a physical and a spiritual bond among Christians that is imperfect at times.

This fits quite well with the statement quoted from Dominus Iesus in the article.

3) I disagree with him about excommunications. While they are not infallible in ensuring that doctrinally the one who is excommuncated is doctrinally in error, they are based on an authority from God and therefore it is incumbent upon the one excommunicated to reconcile with the Church. Those who have been excommunicated unjustly have sought to do so in my analysis of some such as Joan of Arc and a couple of other saints who's names escape me right now. They have accepted the Churches authority in this matter, even when the Bishop was in error. God does not guarantee that each Bishop is infallible but this does not remove their authority when excercising things such as excommunications in the name of the Church. Paul VI removed the excommunication of the Orthodox. He did not say that it was invalid in the first place. He has no authority to do so.

I am still working on the article but that is what I would like to say for starters.

I believe that it will be through the holy spirit that any unity will ever happen. What seems impossible for man is not for God. As I have studied this rift and discussed it with some EO friends it has become apparent to me that it is not as big as I thought and most of the issues I see as quite resolvable without calling one side or the other a heretic. The one issue that is as the article noted most troublesome is the issue of the primacy of Rome. Time will tell where this one heads. It may take an act of God to resolve it. It may not be resolved until the second coming. But there have been some sects that have broken off long ago and have been reconciled from with the Church without having to eat crow so I do believe it is possible. In my view while the Western Church is guranteed by the words of matt 16:18 to stand firm in matters of faith and morals, including doctrines regarding the papacy, the EO Church and Anglicans will change their teachings over time. That is why the dialogue is so important. There has been much healing in my lifetime between the east and the west and I expect it to continue and make this unity an eventual reality.

[Resurrexi]

[quote]1) I find that phrase "one true Church" causes some confusion. It is not theologically unsound per se but gives the impression that that Church has all the truth to the exclusion of others having any truth. Or at least truth of value, i.e. all those visibly outside of it are damned. Something the CC does not and I will contend never has taught. [b]I don't find the phrase "One true Church" used very often in the writings of Popes, councils, and Fathers of the Church.[/b] I don't think it is a phrase that helps the efforts in uniting Christianity. The better phrase is "the fullness of the truth". All of Christianity contains varying amounts of the teachings of Jesus Christ, who himself is the fullness of the truth. I find it impossible to believe that the fullness of the truth has not been passed along in one Church, especially when the scriptures tell us "you shall KNOW THE TRUTH and the TRUTH shall set you free". Salvation depends on truth and the truth is knowable.[/quote]

It's used right here:

[quote][b]The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X:[/b]
14 Q. Why is the Church called One?
A. The true Church is called One, because her children of all ages and places are united together in the same faith, in the same worship, in the same law; and in participation of the same Sacraments, under the same visible Head, the Roman Pontiff.
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/PIUSXCAT.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/PIUSXCAT.HTM[/url][/quote]

[quote]2) The article implies and I think even stated that "outside the Catholic Church there is no salvatoin". Once again theologically this is correct but the dogma is actually "Outside the Church there is no salvatoin". [b]Again the previous phrase is not used in Church documents, papal documents, or the Fathers much, where the latter is. [/b] The later recognizes invincible ignorance and that one may not be culpable for the errors he holds. It also recognizes the spiritual bond of truth, that there is both a physical and a spiritual bond among Christians that is imperfect at times.[/quote]

Both are used:

[quote][b]The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X:[/b]
27 Q. Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?
A. No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/PIUSXCAT.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/PIUSXCAT.HTM[/url][/quote]

[quote]This fits quite well with the statement quoted from Dominus Iesus in the article.

3) I disagree with him about excommunications. While they are not infallible in ensuring that doctrinally the one who is excommuncated is doctrinally in error, they are based on an authority from God and therefore it is incumbent upon the one excommunicated to reconcile with the Church. Those who have been excommunicated unjustly have sought to do so in my analysis of some such as Joan of Arc and a couple of other saints who's names escape me right now. They have accepted the Churches authority in this matter, even when the Bishop was in error. God does not guarantee that each Bishop is infallible but this does not remove their authority when excercising things such as excommunications in the name of the Church. Paul VI removed the excommunication of the Orthodox. He did not say that it was invalid in the first place. He has no authority to do so.

I am still working on the article but that is what I would like to say for starters.

I believe that it will be through the holy spirit that any unity will ever happen. What seems impossible for man is not for God. As I have studied this rift and discussed it with some EO friends it has become apparent to me that it is not as big as I thought and most of the issues I see as quite resolvable without calling one side or the other a heretic. The one issue that is as the article noted most troublesome is the issue of the primacy of Rome. Time will tell where this one heads. It may take an act of God to resolve it. It may not be resolved until the second coming. But there have been some sects that have broken off long ago and have been reconciled from with the Church without having to eat crow so I do believe it is possible. In my view while the Western Church is guranteed by the words of matt 16:18 to stand firm in matters of faith and morals, including doctrines regarding the papacy, the EO Church and Anglicans will change their teachings over time. That is why the dialogue is so important. There has been much healing in my lifetime between the east and the west and I expect it to continue and make this unity an eventual reality.[/quote]

Edited May 16, 2007 by StThomasMore

[thessalonian]

[quote]"It's used right here:


QUOTE
The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X:
14 Q. Why is the Church called One?
A. The true Church is[b]called One[/b], because her children of all ages and places are united together in the same faith, in the same worship, in the same law; and in participation of the same Sacraments, under the same visible Head, the Roman Pontiff.
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/PIUSXCAT.HTM""]http://www.ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/PIUSXCAT.HTM"[/url][/quote]

"The true Church is called One " is not the same as "the one true Chruch". I did not say it was never used and had done searches to back up what I said. But of course you must argue with Catholics on this board as usual, though it is against the rules. All I said was that fullness of the truth is the more used term and that I did not disagree with "one true Church" so what's your problem.

Edited May 16, 2007 by thessalonian